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Lol. I like how you say you think UR is more exegetical but you are not an URer... I'm a preterist URer and yet it was because I tried to prove the rapture would happen soon that I stumbled upon actually reading the bible in 1st century context. It was a "wait a second... What I was taught was not what it actually says" moment.
I sat there with my 5 lexicons, 7 versions, and websters for 2 years (free moments anyway), and came away with what I was later labeled as preterist and URer.
My point is that even though I believe god has "saved" everyone he intended to save from the destruction of Jerusalem as told in the bible, I also know that enlightenment and evolution caused a whole world to see that sacrificing animals and believing in supernatural gods was ineffective. We still have some growing to do but at least today we don't blame sickness on "evil spirits." so I don't mind siding with and being labeled as a URer. I guess I wonder why you don't want to be thought of as UR...
hmmmm...evil spirits....what differs me from FP is that I believe we still live in "this age"....hence...evil is still present. What "evil" is, is entirely another debate altogether
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But yet.... Yes... This thread is still going. Quite the one-sided showdown.
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Originally Posted by Phazelwood
Yes, it is the final showdown.
I see that.
Here's the thing about UR, FP, whatever else etc. This age, the age to come, New Heavens and New Earth, yadda yadda, is about the afterlife I believe. As Mystic would probably say...another universe entirely, with different laws of physics etc...hence no flesh and blood... Nothing else. Back in the day, that is first century and before, a little after too, and now, the concern was/is about one thing. Life after death. Most of the time, if not all, when we see excerpts about "Gehenna, lake of fire, destruction, perish etc" we need to be very careful in interpreting them with a modern mindset, or rather, western paradigm, as these topics were culturally eastern, and most definitely symbolic of a real world occurrence....i.e. war, calamity, death, destruction. Nothing really to do with the afterlife. When we properly interpret them as such, we see no real agenda concerning the afterlife, except that those in Christ are blessed with resurrection from the dead. If this is the case, then what about everyone else? It all boils down to who are everyone else, and how do they pertain to the living soul, or living blood and life given to Adam. Some argue Adam was the first man, some don't. Personally, I believe Adam was either the first modern man to be given this blessing, then cursed, or at least one of the first hunters and gatherers that crossed over into Mesopotamia. How does this man, in effect, affect all of mankind?
He is a representation of all mankind, just as Christ is a representation of mankind's ability to overcome death. The text in 1 Cor 15 says in Adam, not in the sense of in Adam biologically, or even federally, but "like" him. In that we all sin and come short of God's glory here on earth. In the flesh, we are burdened. What happens in the afterlife, well, isn't really up for debate because it isn't available from the text to discern the outcome of sinners without Christ Rom 11:33-34. As far as Christ is concerned, since all "like" Adam once transgressed and are sinners, so are we "like" Christ in His victory over death at the cross. What Christ did at the corss released the power of death to all those "like" or "in" Adam. Does this mean people will have a second chance at death? Mar 3:29 seems to suggest that there is one sin that is unpardonable, and if that sin is unpardonable, it is obvious that this sin will still exist to be enacted in the afterlife.
But as far as national judgement and everlasting shame is concerned, I believe this was merely indicative to the House of Israel and Judah, for their crimes against Christ. By Israel's unification..i.e. 12 disciples and their ministry in and out of Judea, the world was reconciled. What does this mean? Just that.
I'm glad to be a heretic considering the doctrine I'd have to believe to not be one.
I feel very much the same way.
In fact, had it not been for the terrific fear imposed on me from the time I could talk by the people I looked up to the most, i.e. my ET parents, my ET Sunday school teachers, and my ET pastors --- I say, without the influence of that fear that literally drove me insane for twelve years, I would have chosen to live out my life as an agnostic, trying to treat others the same way that I would like to be treated by them, and simply hoping for the best after I died.
In my opinion, the greatest of all manifestations of God's grace in action on this earth is that ETers can believe the way they do, and not go stark raving mad thinking about it.
POST SCRIPT: Because of the influence of Ray Prinzing (my earthly hero and mentor), both of my parents embraced UR later in life.
His writing REDEMPTION ALL IN ALL was particularly helpful. Redemption by Ray Prinzing
All of Ray's other writings can be accessed through Google by typing in his name.
There are several pages of Google links about Ray Prinzing.
Right, as if eternally torturing someone is in any way reasonable or logical, you crack me up with your silly vile myths and vain superstitions, especially when you try to pass them off as being reasonable or logical.
I am merely talking about logic and reason within the scriptures themselves...Using what is there to learn from...It says what it says...
Yes, immature. Your "logic" that God created a few special people to adorn with unending happiness, while creating most to suffer forever is not logical at all. Your perceived knowledge is a head knowledge and not a heart knowledge. What you call my feelings is my faith. Live with it, or better yet, open your heart to the one, true and living God who is Love.
Obviously you do not know what logic is...Logic is used to acertain the meaning of something with the information that you are presented with without going outside with undue speculation...Or twisting things...If Hawyaw says that they will never enter His Rest...Then where will they go?...This is where logic comes into play with the information provided to you....And if it says that Hawyaw Elects certain ones that He foreknows and then foreordains them and then calls them and then sanctifies them and then glorifies them so that there is no more condemnation for those that are in Jeshua....Then what becomes of the un-elected ones?...Where will they go?...For Hawyaw says that because of their unbelief that they shall never enter into His Rest...Where will they go?...Where is Hawyaw's Rest?...Heaven?...The only other alternative for ET is Anihilationism...However, as JWs preach that those that don't make the mark are just not resurrected and no longer exist...However, the Bible says that ALL are resurrected, for judgement, some to eternal life and some to eternal damnation...So, presented with that Biblical information, Anihilationism is invalid...And when it says that death and hades are cast into the lake of fire that means that death is no longer going to be present, no one will die anymore so there is no need for the Grave any longer...It is symbolic...
“My Greek scholars are more reliable than yoursâ€
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Originally Posted by Richard1965
I am merely talking about logic and reason within the scriptures themselves...Using what is there to learn from...It says what it says...
It really comes down to which Greek scholars you choose to rely on.
That is why the ET/UR debate will usually become hopelessly deadlocked in a stalemate.
There are many Greek scholars that agree with the conclusions of John Wesley Hanson
AIÓN – AIÓNIOS AIN -- AINIOS
My Greek scholars are Louis Abbott and the many Greek scholars he quotes in chapters three and twelve.
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS An Analytical Study of Words
If you think it glorifies God more to let some of His creatures suffer forever, or annihilate them, then you keep believing that.
But if you think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need which is a change in their stubborn will, then know that there is plenty of evidence in the Bible that is exactly what God is like.
It really comes down to which Greek scholars you choose to rely on.
That is why the ET/UR debate will usually become hopelessly deadlocked in a stalemate.
There are many Greek scholars that agree with the conclusions of John Wesley Hanson
AIÓN – AIÓNIOS AIN -- AINIOS
My Greek scholars are Louis Abbott and the many Greek scholars he quotes in chapters three and twelve.
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS An Analytical Study of Words
If you think it glorifies God more to let some of His creatures suffer forever, or annihilate them, then you keep believing that.
But if you think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need which is a change in their stubborn will, then know that there is plenty of evidence in the Bible that is exactly what God is like.
I rely on unbiased, non-religious Greek and Hebrew scholars...For I know all to well how agendized people will tilt things...I am out for the Truth...Be it UR or ET...My mind is open...However, I do not see your claim in the Scriptures...And from my Jewish heritage I know that Jews did not and still do not believe in Hell as toadays Christians see it...And seeing that Christianities heritage is Judaism...hmmm...
Obviously you do not know what logic is...Logic is used to acertain the meaning of something with the information that you are presented with without going outside with undue speculation...Or twisting things...If Hawyaw says that they will never enter His Rest...Then where will they go?...
To me there is no logic in a supreme all powerful, all knowing being that doesn't get His desire, wants, or will, for i believe that an all powerful being knows how to get what He desires.
One of the things that gets me is that mainstream churchianity puts God at mans level and can't obtain his desires.
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Then where will they go?...
Isa 26:9 -
With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
What happens when one learns righteousness?
There is multiple pieces of scripture that tells us God will get what He wants, and that is for ALL to come to the knowledge of the truth.
To me there is no logic in a supreme all powerful, all knowing being that doesn't get His desire, wants, or will, for i believe that an all powerful being knows how to get what He desires.
One of the things that gets me is that mainstream churchianity puts God at mans level and can't obtain his desires.
Isa 26:9 -
With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
What happens when one learns righteousness?
There is multiple pieces of scripture that tells us God will get what He wants, and that is for ALL to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Here is the whole chapter, not just the 'cherry':
Who is he talking about?...
Isa 26:1 In that day shall this song be sung in the land of Judah; We have a strong city; salvation will God appoint for walls and bulwarks.
Isa 26:2 Open ye the gates, that the righteous nation which keepeth the truth may enter in.
Isa 26:3 Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee.
Isa 26:4 Trust ye in the LORD for ever: for in the LORD JEHOVAH is everlasting strength:
Isa 26:5 For he bringeth down them that dwell on high; the lofty city, he layeth it low; he layeth it low, even to the ground; he bringeth it even to the dust.
Isa 26:6 The foot shall tread it down, even the feet of the poor, and the steps of the needy.
Isa 26:7 The way of the just is uprightness: thou, most upright, dost weigh the path of the just.
Isa 26:8 Yea, in the way of thy judgments, O LORD, have we waited for thee; the desire of our soul is to thy name, and to the remembrance of thee.
Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
Isa 26:10 Let favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD.
Isa 26:11 LORD, when thy hand is lifted up, they will not see: but they shall see, and be ashamed for their envy at the people; yea, the fire of thine enemies shall devour them.
Isa 26:12 LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us.
Isa 26:13 O LORD our God, other lords beside thee have had dominion over us: but by thee only will we make mention of thy name.
Isa 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
Isa 26:15 Thou hast increased the nation, O LORD, thou hast increased the nation: thou art glorified: thou hadst removed it far unto all the ends of the earth.
Isa 26:16 LORD, in trouble have they visited thee, they poured out a prayer when thy chastening was upon them.
Isa 26:17 Like as a woman with child, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O LORD.
Isa 26:18 We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen.
Isa 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
Isa 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
Lokks to me like Isaiah is talking about Judah...It merely says that the inhabitants of the world will learn what righteousness is for it says in the next verse that the wicked will not learn righteousness...Interesting...If the wicked will not learn righteousness but the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness...Maybe he is speaking about Judah learning righteousness...otherwise the two verses make no sense and are at odd with each other...
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I'm glad to be a heretic too
“My Greek scholars are more reliable than yoursâ€
