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20When evening came, Jesus was reclining at the table with the Twelve. 21And while they were eating, he said, “I tell you the truth, one of you will betray me.” 22They were very sad and began to say to him one after the other, “Surely not I, Lord?” 23Jesus replied, “The one who has dipped his hand into the bowl with me will betray me. 24The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.” 25Then Judas, the one who would betray him, said, “Surely not I, Rabbi?”
Jesus answered, “Yes, it is you.”
I believe the correct interpretation is this:
Mar 14:21 the Son of Man doth indeed go, as it hath been written concerning him (Jesus), but woe to that man (Judas) through whom the Son of Man is delivered up; good were it to him (Jesus) if that man (Judas) had not been born.'
And not this:
Mar 14:21 the Son of Man doth indeed go, as it hath been written concerning him (Jesus), but woe to that man (Judas) through whom the Son of Man is delivered up; good were it to him (Judas) if that man (Judas) had not been born.'
"Originally Posted by saved33 But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.” Whether or not you agree, IMO this still remains true.
"But let us look carefully at the Greek text: kalon ên auto eiouk egennêthê ho anthropos ekeinos, "Ideal were it for Him if that man were not born" or "It were ideal for Him if that man was not born." The question is asked, Who is the Him? The answer is in the preceding clause. There we have the pronoun autou, "Him," and anthropo ekeino, "that man," both referred to in such a way that we cannot mistake them. "The Son of Man indeed goeth as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed!" "Him" is the Son of Man, "that man" is Judas.
The Him cannot refer to Judas, therefore the text can be paraphrased as, "Ideal were it for Him (the Son of Man) if that man (Judas) were not born."
That is the understanding that the syntax requires.
Therefore, Mark 14:21 does not contradict Col. 1:15-20; 1 Tim. 4:9-11; Rom. 5:18, 19; etc., all teaching the ultimate salvation of Judas."
Regarding the confusion of the different versions, Abbott adds the following note:
"Notice how the following versions translates this clause:
The ASV, 1901 margin, "Good were it for him if that man had not been born;"
Rotherham's version, "Well for him if that man had not been born;"
Murphy's edition of the Douay Version and the New Testament translated from the Latin Vulgate, 1898,
"It were better for him, if that man had not been born;"
(the following three versions are quoted in the original spelling)
Wiclif, 1380, "It were good to hym if thilke man hadde not been borun;"
Tyndale, 1534, "Good were it for him if that man had never bene borne;"
Rheims, 1582, "it vvere good for him, if that man had not been borne."
and repeating the conclusion
The Him cannot refer to Judas, therefore the text can be paraphrased as, "Ideal were it for Him (the Son of Man) if that man (Judas) were not born."
IMO that is the understanding that the syntax requires.
Therefore, Mark 14:21 does not contradict Col. 1:15-20; 1 Tim. 4:9-11; Rom. 5:18, 19; etc., all teaching the ultimate salvation of Judas."
"Originally Posted by saved33 But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.” Whether or not you agree, IMO this still remains true.
"But let us look carefully at the Greek text: kalon ên auto eiouk egennêthê ho anthropos ekeinos, "Ideal were it for Him if that man were not born" or "It were ideal for Him if that man was not born." The question is asked, Who is the Him? The answer is in the preceding clause. There we have the pronoun autou, "Him," and anthropo ekeino, "that man," both referred to in such a way that we cannot mistake them. "The Son of Man indeed goeth as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed!" "Him" is the Son of Man, "that man" is Judas.
The Him cannot refer to Judas, therefore the text can be paraphrased as, "Ideal were it for Him (the Son of Man) if that man (Judas) were not born."
That is the understanding that the syntax requires.
Therefore, Mark 14:21 does not contradict Col. 1:15-20; 1 Tim. 4:9-11; Rom. 5:18, 19; etc., all teaching the ultimate salvation of Judas."
Regarding the confusion of the different versions, Abbott adds the following note:
"Notice how the following versions translates this clause:
The ASV, 1901 margin, "Good were it for him if that man had not been born;"
Rotherham's version, "Well for him if that man had not been born;"
Murphy's edition of the Douay Version and the New Testament translated from the Latin Vulgate, 1898,
"It were better for him, if that man had not been born;"
(the following three versions are quoted in the original spelling)
Wiclif, 1380, "It were good to hym if thilke man hadde not been borun;"
Tyndale, 1534, "Good were it for him if that man had never bene borne;"
Rheims, 1582, "it vvere good for him, if that man had not been borne."
and repeating the conclusion
The Him cannot refer to Judas, therefore the text can be paraphrased as, "Ideal were it for Him (the Son of Man) if that man (Judas) were not born."
IMO that is the understanding that the syntax requires.
Therefore, Mark 14:21 does not contradict Col. 1:15-20; 1 Tim. 4:9-11; Rom. 5:18, 19; etc., all teaching the ultimate salvation of Judas."
Thank you for taking the time to clarify this.
It could easily have been better for many people if certain other people had not been born. In saying that I'm thinking of all the people who have been raped, robbed, despised, enslaved and murdered by their "brothers" in this life.
It must be God's way of torturing certain people. After all, I've been told that EVERYTHING is God's plan. Clearly, He planned it for Judas.
Are you serious, or just joking? Where in the Bible does it say that EVERYTHING is God's plan?
If EVERYTHING that happens is God's plan, then when a murderer plans to murder someone, it is actually God's plan to have someone murdered. And when a rapist plans to rape someone, then it is actually God's plan to have that person raped. And when a person rejects God in unbelief, then it is actually God's plan for that person to not believe, etc. IE: the evil in the world all around us is God's will. I could go on and on...
Hmmm.....so....if something bad is happening to us we should not pray to get out of the situation, because to do so would be going against God's plan.
Clearly we should not believe everything we hear, especially that "everything" that happens is God's plan.
Are you serious, or just joking? Where in the Bible does it say that EVERYTHING is God's plan?
If EVERYTHING that happens is God's plan, then when a murderer plans to murder someone, it is actually God's plan to have someone murdered. And when a rapist plans to rape someone, then it is actually God's plan to have that person raped. And when a person rejects God in unbelief, then it is actually God's plan for that person to not believe, etc. IE: the evil in the world all around us is God's will. I could go on and on...
Hmmm.....so....if something bad is happening to us we should not pray to get out of the situation, because to do so would be going against God's plan.
Clearly we should not believe everything we hear, especially that "everything" that happens is God's plan.
Bud
Actually, the murders and rapes are in God's plan. God knows EVERYTHING and nothing happens without His approval and knowledge:
Mat 10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
Mat 10:30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
Are you serious, or just joking? Where in the Bible does it say that EVERYTHING is God's plan?
If EVERYTHING that happens is God's plan, then when a murderer plans to murder someone, it is actually God's plan to have someone murdered. And when a rapist plans to rape someone, then it is actually God's plan to have that person raped. And when a person rejects God in unbelief, then it is actually God's plan for that person to not believe, etc. IE: the evil in the world all around us is God's will. I could go on and on...
Hmmm.....so....if something bad is happening to us we should not pray to get out of the situation, because to do so would be going against God's plan.
Clearly we should not believe everything we hear, especially that "everything" that happens is God's plan.
Bud
Amen.... Bud !!
Only very sick, sick individuals would believe that God is the master of murder, rape, etc., and to say He uses such evil to bring Him glory is a very sick mind...... believing this teaching brings only confusion to what we know of what the Holy Spirit witnesses to us (the believer) that is written in the holy word... of the love of God is such contradiction to the nature of a Holy God !!
And He especially doesn't need to use evilness to show His Holiness... man knows what is evil it doesn't not need to be taught... we are born innate with what is right or wrong, good or evil.... within the human consciousness !!
God is not a lair, nor the author of confusion, nor is any of that in His plan and as the believer we can witness in the scripture by the Holy Spirit that our God is not part of nor does He tempt anyone with evil.... "Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. (James 1:13)
It seems that those who believe such has the tendency or has been a murderer, rapist, etc., and speak such to justify their guilt and put the blame on God by justifying it in believing it is part of God's plan....
..... kind of like that little saying you know.... "devil made me do it," they're now saying... "God made me do it".... sick, sick, sick, we are witnessing God's truth in His word come to pass in calling... evil is good and good is evil !!
Conclusion: God has no plan nor purpose in evil and to think, believe such is a mind that has been handed over to a depraved mind !!
Just because God is omniscient, being all knowing does not mean He is a part of evil.....
You are so correct in stating....."Clearly we should not believe everything we hear, especially that "everything" that happens is God's plan."
Satan will use especially information on the internet to be an instrument for his lies and deception.... amen !!
Always remember....
....."Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. 18 In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures". (James 1:16-18)
AND....
....."But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy." (James 3:17)
Last edited by Cyber Munchkin; 12-27-2011 at 05:26 AM..
Reason: added scripture
20When evening came, Jesus was reclining at the table with the Twelve. 21And while they were eating, he said, “I tell you the truth, one of you will betray me.” 22They were very sad and began to say to him one after the other, “Surely not I, Lord?” 23Jesus replied, “The one who has dipped his hand into the bowl with me will betray me. 24The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.” 25Then Judas, the one who would betray him, said, “Surely not I, Rabbi?”
Jesus answered, “Yes, it is you.”
Amen.... saved33 !!
Those who contradict the truth of God will one day weep bitterly..... wishing that they too had not been born in betraying the Son of God with their false teachings !!
The reasons for my belief, a few scriptural references
1 Corinthians 8: 5-7
5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. (NASB)
Romans 11:32
"For from Him, through Him, and to Him are all things," (NASB)
Isaiah 45: 6That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil*: I the LORD do all these things. 8Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it. (KJV)
*evil=ra= the opposite of good (towb) /some definitions given (Key Word Study Bible) -bad, inferior quality, calamity, severity, mischevious, malignant, injurious, unpleasant, hurtful
arises from the word, Ra'a' (verb) to spoil by breaking into pieces, to make something good for nothing, to make something evil, to afflict, to dash into pieces, to shatter, to be broken, to destroy
I don't believe that God is evil, but the scriptures show that all is out of Him. I believe that He does use evil for His purposes, for example, to contrast it with good. A writer who writes a story or a play may have this element in the plot but this does not mean that the author is evil. God's is pure, holy, righteous, and good and yet I read from the scriptures, that all is out of Him. God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 12-27-2011 at 07:27 AM..
"Originally Posted by saved33 But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.” Whether or not you agree, IMO this still remains true.
"But let us look carefully at the Greek text: kalon ên auto eiouk egennêthê ho anthropos ekeinos, "Ideal were it for Him if that man were not born" or "It were ideal for Him if that man was not born." The question is asked, Who is the Him? The answer is in the preceding clause. There we have the pronoun autou, "Him," and anthropo ekeino, "that man," both referred to in such a way that we cannot mistake them. "The Son of Man indeed goeth as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed!" "Him" is the Son of Man, "that man" is Judas.
The Him cannot refer to Judas, therefore the text can be paraphrased as, "Ideal were it for Him (the Son of Man) if that man (Judas) were not born."
That is the understanding that the syntax requires.
Therefore, Mark 14:21 does not contradict Col. 1:15-20; 1 Tim. 4:9-11; Rom. 5:18, 19; etc., all teaching the ultimate salvation of Judas."
Regarding the confusion of the different versions, Abbott adds the following note:
"Notice how the following versions translates this clause:
The ASV, 1901 margin, "Good were it for him if that man had not been born;"
Rotherham's version, "Well for him if that man had not been born;"
Murphy's edition of the Douay Version and the New Testament translated from the Latin Vulgate, 1898,
"It were better for him, if that man had not been born;"
(the following three versions are quoted in the original spelling)
Wiclif, 1380, "It were good to hym if thilke man hadde not been borun;"
Tyndale, 1534, "Good were it for him if that man had never bene borne;"
Rheims, 1582, "it vvere good for him, if that man had not been borne."
and repeating the conclusion
The Him cannot refer to Judas, therefore the text can be paraphrased as, "Ideal were it for Him (the Son of Man) if that man (Judas) were not born."
IMO that is the understanding that the syntax requires.
Therefore, Mark 14:21 does not contradict Col. 1:15-20; 1 Tim. 4:9-11; Rom. 5:18, 19; etc., all teaching the ultimate salvation of Judas."
I have seen this very argument made on several universlaists publications, but if you think about it, it makes no sense. It suggests that it was Judas fault that Jesus had to suffer, and that without Judas Jesus would not have been sacrificed. Does that make sense? No, the crucifiction was going to take place with or without Judas, as it was God's plan from the beginning.
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I could go on and on...
