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What I don't understand is why both UR's and ET's are so against the concept of annihilation. To me it's a downright perfect alternative.
We're against the theory of annihilation because it's not the Word of God; it's heresy. I noticed that you said "it's a downright perfect alternative". Alternative to what? The truth? Remember, the serpent duped Eve with something contrary to the Word of God.
God said there is a burning eternal hell for all sinners, and that's the way it is. We are not to lean to our own understanding. This is the Lord's matter to handle; our responsibility is to live free from all sin and to keep His truth.
Luke 16
[22] And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
[23] And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
[24] And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
God said there is a burning eternal hell for all sinners, and that's the way it is. We are not to lean to our own understanding.
Well, that shoots the concept of UR out of the water! I just simply believe that there has to be some form of middle ground. Annihilation would be that middle ground. It sure must be sad following a god in whom you believe will damn virtually His entire creation to eternal torment, especially considering the fact that the Bible states that He knew us all when we were still in the womb. It doesn't have to be that way, and if that is really the way it is, He's not a God that I want to spend eternity with.
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Luke 16 [22] And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; [23] And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. [24] And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
I don't know about you, but if I was in the position of the man in hell, I think I'd be asking for something more like an entire bucket of water, or maybe a fire hose! Do you agree, or do I leaneth upon my own understanding again?
Sparrow, your posts are uplifting, but I do believe that there are limits to God's mercy. UR's seem to be on this "LOVE" trip with the same fanaticism that ET's are on their "torture" trip.
Things are not so black and white, and the theory of annihilation is not so conveniently the middle ground between ET and UR as it is often said to be ... The question is whether or not God is truly the savior of all people and not only of those that believe. Both ET and CI(annihilation/Conditional Immortality) teach that it is left up to every individual person to save themselves by hearing the gospel and making a wise "freewill" decision whether or not to believe it in this life before they die ... Though CI is certainly more merciful than ET, it is no less a doctrine which teaches that Christ fails to accomplish Gods will that all people be saved, and that God is not truly the savior of all people, or even the savior of the world.
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The God of the OT does not sound like a loving God. He is a vengeful and just God. His message has not changed over the years. The only thing that's changed is man's interpretation of His message. The God of the NT has a slightly different tone, but did any of His requirements and provisions for His Creation change over those years?
Jesus said, "You heard it was said, eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth" ... He did not say, "once upon a time Isaid eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth" ...
That is to say Jesus was telling the people of Israel that the law of eye for and eye and tooth for a tooth was not said by God, and he came to speak the word of God and do the true will of the father and he said to the people, "I say unto you, turn the other cheek and love your enemies".
The old testament is a shadow of the new testament ... It represents how carnal minded humans understand God from the perspective of their tribal and cultural influences. Though the writings themselves are mostly inspired, they do not correctly communicate the nature of God.
The true nature of God was never known until Christ came and revealed it in his own person and by his own actions and words. He came to set the record straight, and to reveal Gods true nature which is love.
Paul was clear that the old covenant was useless
2 Corinthians 3:14
"But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord."
Notice Paul referred specifically to the reading of Moses ... Why Moses? Because it is in the Pentateuch, the first five books of the bible (or the books of the law), that were tampered with by the lying pen of the scribes as was testified of In Jeremiah ...
Jeremiah 8:8
"How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actuallythe lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?"
Three times eye for an eye is mentioned in the books of the law, and it is found no where else in the scriptures, old or new testament. But it was the law of eye for an eye that corrupted the rest of the law and that is why there were so many terrible laws that no Christian would observe today. If you want me to list a few just ask ...
That is what Jesus mean when he said "you hear it was said eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth, but is say(god says) turn the other cheek and love your enemies" ... And that is also what he meant when he said "I desire mercy and not sacrifice", quoting the prophet Isaiah.
The simple fact is that the law was corrupted by the babylonian and kenite cultures, and it started with Moses father in law Jethro, the Kenite high priest of Baal ...
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Do you really believe that a god that wiped out virtually the entire population of the earth with a massive flood is mercyful enough to allow EVERYONE to enter His Kingdom? C'mon now, I think you're assuming a lot of things there.
Yet we read in the new testament of how Christ preached to the spirits in prison who were rebellious in the time of Noah ... If kills and makes alive, and destroys and he renews. He exiles and then reconciles. The purpose of all the things that God does is for the eventual manifestation of his will that all be reconciled to him through Christ.
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This is where annihilation comes into play. There is extreme evil in the world, and there are those of strong Christian faith. In the middle between these two extremes are where the mass majority of human beings fall.
God is a just god, and He demands obedience and faithfulness to His commandments. He wants us to recognize and accept his gift while we are here on this earth. You are right about one thing, Sparrow. God IS love. This is why He sent His Son to die for our sins. BUT, you have to accept His love and repent of your sins to be saved. The key for Heaven's door is available for everyone to use if they so choose. Sadly, most people will forget their keys on the nightstand.
God knew what the majority of humans would choose, and I believe that annihilation is a mercyful alternative to eternal torture. It's wishful thinking to believe that ALL people will see Heaven. Sure, that would be optimal, but it would also eliminate all forms of accountability to the obedience to God's Word that humans are expected to follow. Note that I said accountability to "God's Word", not "man's laws". There are TONS of good people on the earth that live good lives, but without faith in JC, they have fallen short of the glory of God.
What I don't understand is why both UR's and ET's are so against the concept of annihilation. To me it's a downright perfect alternative. The reason I believe this is because I think it is silly to believe that God would allow people who do not bring glory to Him into His Kingdom, and in the same respect, silly to believe that God would allow the majority of His Creation (which was born into sin and from Day 1 fallen short of His glory) to burn in eternal hell after a short time on earth.
Our God is a mercyful God, but there are limits to His mercy. Don't get too carried away with this whole "LOVE" thing. Does He LOVE us all? Absolutely. Will He show everyone unconditional LOVE in the end after most reject Him? Doubtful.
Again, the point is that Gods will is sovereign, and he does not rely on corrupt humans to save themselves in order to accomplish his will that all be saved. When God moves in our lives he drags us to Christ by his spirit and we are quickened and made new. We are a new creation, and our faith and our repentance are gifts and fruits of his spirit in our lives. It is all his work and none of ours, we are his workmanship, and it is god ho works within us to cause us to desire to do and to actually do whatever pleases him.
This is what I believe: "How Adam was formed"
Genesis 2:7,17 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Since Adam was the prototype of mankind, something in his genetic makeup was still susceptible to whatever harmful element there was in this tree...which would cause an immediate spiritual (essence) death.
Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
For those who are "truly" evil...they are to live their life (as empty vessels) until death returns them to dust and the life goes back to the creator who gave it.AISI
Matthew 8:21-22 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
There are those who are dead in the flesh, yet alive in spirit, and those who are alive in the flesh yet are dead in the spirit.
I could elaborate but that won't settle the matter, it would still be a speculation, therefore, I'll leave it at that.
Annihilate (denotes vengeance): To destroy, abolish, wipe out, erase, eradicate, extinguish, obliterate, liquidate, root out, exterminate, nullify, extirpate, wipe from the face of the earth.
Synonym: snuff out - put an end to; kill; "The Nazis snuffed out the life of many Jewish children" extinguish, do away with, eliminate, get rid of.
In conclusion: I don't believe that God is vengeful.
This is what I believe: "How Adam was formed"
Genesis 2:7,17 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Since Adam was the prototype of mankind, something in his genetic makeup was still susceptible to whatever harmful element there was in this tree...which would cause an immediate spiritual (essence) death.
Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
For those who are "truly" evil...they are to live their life (as empty vessels) until death returns them to dust and the life goes back to the creator who gave it.AISI
Matthew 8:21-22 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
There are those who are dead in the flesh, yet alive in spirit, and those who are alive in the flesh yet are dead in the spirit.
I could elaborate but that won't settle the matter, it would still be a speculation, therefore, I'll leave it at that.
Annihilate (denotes vengeance): To destroy, abolish, wipe out, erase, eradicate, extinguish, obliterate, liquidate, root out, exterminate, nullify, extirpate, wipe from the face of the earth.
Synonym: snuff out - put an end to; kill; "The Nazis snuffed out the life of many Jewish children" extinguish, do away with, eliminate, get rid of.
In conclusion: I don't believe that God is vengeful.
Peace!
So, in essence, you believe in UR, right? There are only two sides, apperently......
Well, that happens when you change the clear meaning of the Scriptures.
The English will never be clear, as the Bible was not written in English.
Can you show me evidence that Jesus ever intended to completely re-design the entire theological foundation of Judaism in his mission? There is no eternal hell in Judaism. Why did Jesus add it out of the blue?
We're against the theory of annihilation because it's not the Word of God; it's heresy.
It's heresy, despite the fact that half the Bible and the entire religion that Christianity is founded on includes it?
Feel free to show me where Jesus intended to destroy the entire theological foundation of Judaism in his mission. As I recall, Jesus spent most of his life studying the Tanakh, and said that not single bit of the law would change.
The English will never be clear, as the Bible was not written in English.
Can you show me evidence that Jesus ever intended to completely re-design the entire theological foundation of Judaism in his mission? There is no eternal hell in Judaism. Why did Jesus add it out of the blue?
Actually according to the writngs of Josephus the pharisees taught the false doctrine of ET ... while the sadducees taught a form of annihilation.
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