The Lost Sheep

[TwoWitnesses]

Originally Posted by ans57

In a round about way, you are correct. Self-righteousness versus "righteousness with God" is what was being illustrated in the verses I posted. There a chasm of difference between the two.

Thanks.

Self-righteousness and Righteousness are two different things. Christ wasn't talking about "self-righteous" people in the verses I quoted...and neither are the Psalms that I mentioned.

Regarding "righteousness with God"...it's like the way, that all of us have sinned, but very few of us are capable of certain atrocities. If pushed to commit such an atrocity, many of us would rather hurt or sacrifice ourselves than hurt someone else. Those types of people represent those, who though they are sinners...are not wicked. They have a conscience and are capable of great love...

If I could present a chart of the permutations along with the associated language the Bible uses...it would be impossible for all the semantics and interpretations to get confused.

[TwoWitnesses]

Originally Posted by saved33

Two Witnesses,

What Paul was saying in Romans 3 was that no one, neither Jew nor Gentile, was made righteous through observance of the Law. (Thinking that if one obeys the 10 Commandments, one is righteous in God's eyes. This is false of course.)

9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

But Paul should not have quoted that part of Psalms 53 which is not talking about sinners (which we all are) but downright wicked people...who have no love for God. That's my point. It creates the wrong impression.

Of course we are all under sin. But that's different from saying "no one does any good at all."

If there was NO ONE RIGHTEOUS..then Christ could not have made a reference to not needing to doctor or heal the RIGHTEOUS. But of course, the established religion tries to eclipse Christ with Paul, and has completely twisted things.

Paul also was a very bad communicator.

No one needs to be "declared righteous." Paul didn't even understand what he was talking about.
(CHRIST SAID: "Whoever doesn’t honor the Son doesn’t honor the Father who sent him. I assure you that whoever hears my word and believes in the one who sent me has eternal life and won’t come under judgment but has passed from death into life.")

God doesn't "declare people righteous"...he simply knows the hearts and minds of men, in an all-powerful way. He already knows whether people do good out of genuine love, or if it's just for show. Even Christ knew this. Righteous also doesn't mean free from sin..as I've already pointed out...but it refers to those people who have a good heart...and those are the people that seek God actively all their lives.

[TwoWitnesses]

[quote=saved33;20938849]

Originally Posted by TwoWitnesses

I agree with you about Paul, of course.

Two Witnesses,

What do you have against Paul?

lol.

Great question..but focusing on that is off topic for this thread.

There are so many things it could probably fit a volume even larger than all of his epistles.

I don't think it makes sense for me to spend time on that though. If you search earnestly...with Christ as your King and your Priority...I'm sure you'll find the answer.

I may not be back on for a bit..by the way. I've got some music projects going on during the next few weeks. I'll pop in when I can!

God Bless all of you. I love you guys!

[Heartsong]

Originally Posted by TwoWitnesses

Ok, that is a great post..but let me end this confusion once and for all. It's not about SINNER vs. NON SINNER!!

We are all sinners!!!

I made the distinction already above, but it gets lost in all the fuss.

The Righteous will Seek God even in their sin...because they are Drawn by the Father to salvation. They have been perverted by the world but they will transcend. One instance of this is Ezekiel and the other prophets. Another example is John the Baptist. Look how blessed and righteous he was...and he grew up not knowing Christ!

Christ came to save those who were really sick, but who had the capacity to be healed...those who really needed help.

You are continuing to limit God's grace and his ability to save. Why do you insist that some cannot be saved? That's a strange doctrine. In fact, I've never heard it taught other than by a few staunch Calvinist theologians. The scriptures refute this in every corner. All that God created was good.

[TwoWitnesses]

Originally Posted by Heartsong

You are continuing to limit God's grace and his ability to save. Why do you insist that some cannot be saved? That's a strange doctrine. In fact, I've never heard it taught other than by a few staunch Calvinist theologians. The scriptures refute this in every corner. All that God created was good.

?????????????????????

CHRIST SAID:
"Narrow is the path that leads to salvation..and few be it that find it"

"Many are called...but few are chosen"

I could go on forever.

I am not limiting anything. And I am not insisting on anything. I use scripture to back up my claims. Do you? What Bible are you reading from by the way??

Could you please show me where the Scriptures refute this in every corner? lol!!

What about those who accept the Mark of the Beast? Are they also saved?

[TwoWitnesses]

Originally Posted by Heartsong

You are continuing to limit God's grace and his ability to save. Why do you insist that some cannot be saved? That's a strange doctrine. In fact, I've never heard it taught other than by a few staunch Calvinist theologians. The scriptures refute this in every corner. All that God created was good.

But all that exists in this world is not good. If someone were to harm your child (God forbid)..and not show any remorse...you would say that they were good? What reality are you living in?

PLEASE SHOW ME HOW THE SCRIPTURES REFUTE THIS IN EVERY CORNER..because it seems to me you have no backup for what you are saying. No Christian who follows scripture believes in Universalism..so I don't see how you can say that rejecting it is a strange doctrine.

(BTW: you can look up "universalism" and "the lies of Satan" on google for some interesting information)