U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jump to a detailed profile or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Business Search - 14 Million verified businesses
Search for:  near: 
 
 
Old 10-12-2011, 08:08 AM
 
2,258 posts, read 784,797 times
Reputation: 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoWitnesses View Post
Mike,

I actually don't agree that Jesus actually "paid the penalty" for the sins. That's the thing. I reject that whole concept. I am in the minority no doubt, and that's okay with me.

I want to ask...because I want to be proven wrong if in fact I am:
After Jesus' ressurrection, where and when did he actually say himself that his death and ressurrection actually paid for our sins?

Please do not quote Paul, or verses from John that state something similar, like John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send His Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him"

Because this above passage simply states that if you believe in Him (and do what he says, which is the key)..you will find salvation. And it also states that the world would be saved through him...but it does not state that our sins are actually paid for.

So please show me, outside of Paul's teachings, where does it actually say that the SINS ARE PAID FOR by Jesus' death?

Also, John the Baptist also didn't sin apparently, but his death did not pay for our sins. Is there evidence anywhere that John the Baptist actually sinned?

Please understand, I am not doing this to be an ass##$*, but to further my knowledge as much as possible, and challenge you.
IS 53:4 Surely He has borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
IS 53:5 But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with His stripes we are healed.
IS 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
IS 53:7 He was oppressed, and He was afflicted, yet He opened not His mouth: He is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so He openeth not his mouth.
IS 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare His generation? for He was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
IS 53:9 And He made His grave with the wicked, and with the rich in His death; because He had done no violence, neither was any deceit in His mouth.
IS 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put him to grief: when You [the Father] shall make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.
Quick reply to this message

 
Old 10-12-2011, 12:14 PM
 
Location: Sylmar, California
817 posts, read 243,225 times
Reputation: 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by garya123 View Post
IS 53:4 Surely He has borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
IS 53:5 But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with His stripes we are healed.
IS 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
IS 53:7 He was oppressed, and He was afflicted, yet He opened not His mouth: He is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so He openeth not his mouth.
IS 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare His generation? for He was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
IS 53:9 And He made His grave with the wicked, and with the rich in His death; because He had done no violence, neither was any deceit in His mouth.
IS 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put him to grief: when You [the Father] shall make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.

Believe me, I am well aware of these verses. I am also well aware of many that illustrate that his coming contradicts many scriptures. I know you like to assume I do not understand the scriptures...but to the contrary...I am aware of many more scriptures than I used to be, and that's the problem. It's easy to pick and choose the ones that support his crucifixion...but there are others, that when you include them, create a lot of problems.

But when you present those scriptures, there's always an "explanation" for why it really means something else. Take the part "he shall see his seed" which you did not put in bold. Jesus never had any offspring. But there are those that will say that it doesn't really mean "seed," but rather spiritual children or something else. I will get into this again maybe, but for now I will address all of these issues on other forums.

About the verse in Romans 3:23 that says "all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God," that once again is a Paul writing.

If we momentarily remove Paul's work...and reinterpret the things Jesus said by the OT only, and then look at the similarities between what Christ taught, and the path of the mystics in all traditions, and Taoism, and Shamanism...it paints a completely different picture.

It is my opinion, though I may always change it, that God the Father isn't as much of a hard-ass about sin as Paul liked to claim. We all sin at some point, but those who love God will always reach for him and become pure. I already know Paul took a line from Psalms 53 out of context and put it together with the Romans 3:23 verse to give the impression that since we are all imperfect, that we are somehow bankrupt, and just hopeless, unless we accept his version of the theology being presented. And that if we do accept, it salvation is just a piece of cake. It is my contention however, that the OT concept of sin vs. righteousness (mentioned in MANY books), and Christ's own words regarding the righteous and the sinners, and the state of affairs of humanity at large, as evidenced by the spiritual walks of many saints of other cultures throughout the ages...bear a connection. And it is also my contention that Paul is at odds WITH ALL OF IT.

I can't prove it at the moment...and I may never be able to...but exploring that possibility is the focus of my studies right now.

If we take out Pauls verse from Romans 3:23...is there any evidence that John the Baptist sinned? Christ said there was never one "born of woman" that was greater than he.

Peace dudes...I gotta get back to work. I'll catch up on posts and write again when I can..but not sure when.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-12-2011, 12:34 PM
 
1,263 posts, read 473,178 times
Reputation: 166
Are you trying to confirm to your father (and yourself?) his belief that Jesus is not the savior?
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-12-2011, 02:00 PM
 
Location: Sylmar, California
817 posts, read 243,225 times
Reputation: 61
Mike, I read your post regarding the verse from Ecclesiastes.

Thank you for posting that! I was unaware of that particular scripture.

Now about Jesus...I was only saying he sinned "if" such and such, in a conditional way.

Now about whether Jesus himself was an exception to the Ecclesiastes scripture...I think Hebrews is the only book that states Jesus was sin free. I could be wrong.

Jesus even said of himself "why do you call me good...there is none good other than God," so was he trying to say that he himself wasn't sin free? (or good)?
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-12-2011, 03:49 PM
 
358 posts, read 156,063 times
Reputation: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoWitnesses View Post
Believe me, I am well aware of these verses. I am also well aware of many that illustrate that his coming contradicts many scriptures. I know you like to assume I do not understand the scriptures...but to the contrary...I am aware of many more scriptures than I used to be, and that's the problem. It's easy to pick and choose the ones that support his crucifixion...but there are others, that when you include them, create a lot of problems.

But when you present those scriptures, there's always an "explanation" for why it really means something else. Take the part "he shall see his seed" which you did not put in bold. Jesus never had any offspring. But there are those that will say that it doesn't really mean "seed," but rather spiritual children or something else. I will get into this again maybe, but for now I will address all of these issues on other forums.

About the verse in Romans 3:23 that says "all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God," that once again is a Paul writing.

If we momentarily remove Paul's work...and reinterpret the things Jesus said by the OT only, and then look at the similarities between what Christ taught, and the path of the mystics in all traditions, and Taoism, and Shamanism...it paints a completely different picture.

It is my opinion, though I may always change it, that God the Father isn't as much of a hard-ass about sin as Paul liked to claim. We all sin at some point, but those who love God will always reach for him and become pure. I already know Paul took a line from Psalms 53 out of context and put it together with the Romans 3:23 verse to give the impression that since we are all imperfect, that we are somehow bankrupt, and just hopeless, unless we accept his version of the theology being presented. And that if we do accept, it salvation is just a piece of cake. It is my contention however, that the OT concept of sin vs. righteousness (mentioned in MANY books), and Christ's own words regarding the righteous and the sinners, and the state of affairs of humanity at large, as evidenced by the spiritual walks of many saints of other cultures throughout the ages...bear a connection. And it is also my contention that Paul is at odds WITH ALL OF IT.

I can't prove it at the moment...and I may never be able to...but exploring that possibility is the focus of my studies right now.

If we take out Pauls verse from Romans 3:23...is there any evidence that John the Baptist sinned? Christ said there was never one "born of woman" that was greater than he.

Peace dudes...I gotta get back to work. I'll catch up on posts and write again when I can..but not sure when.
Your interest in learning is noteworthy. When you say that you don't believe that Jesus paid for sins, do you mean that you don't believe that the Bible teaches it, or do you not believe it, even though the Bible does teach it? (I'm not trying to be funny...I am seriously asking).

You seem to be looking through the Scriptures, but at the same time you comment a bit negatively regarding Paul. If we are trying to come to an understanding about certain truths or teachings, and both sides have a different position regarding the Bible, the results cannot be harmonious.

There are people within this forum who believe that the Bible is the Word of God. If Paul's writings declare a certain thing, then we accept it as part of God's Word. People who believe the Bible do not choose to find truth outside the Bible (at least not from other belief systems).

You may have said this, yourself; but I agree wholeheartedly that any conclusion we derive from Scripture must be in harmony with anything and everything else the Bible may have to say reagrding a matter.

The idea of man's sinfulness is well-represented in Scripture without having to rely strictly on Paul's (God-inspired) writings. Psalm 58 speaks a bit to this particular subject:

Ps 58:3-5

3 The wicked are estranged from the womb;
They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.
4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent;
They are like the deaf cobra that stops its ear,
5 Which will not heed the voice of charmers,
Charming ever so skillfully.

We have that well-known verse in Jeremiah 17 (v.9)

The heart is deceitful above all things,
And desperately wicked;
Who can know it?


But I must go out now, as well. I keep thinking that if I were able to save myself through my own efforts (if I could) I would have no need of a Savior. And all through the Bible the coming of the Savior was prefigured and foretold. And finally, He arrived.

We talk about "good news" on this forum. Here it is:

Luke 2:8-11
8 Now there were in the same country shepherds living out in the fields, keeping watch over their flock by night. 9 And behold, an angel of the Lord stood before them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were greatly afraid. 10 Then the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid, for behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy which will be to all people. 11 For there is born to you this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.

Be back later. May God bless you all.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-12-2011, 08:31 PM
 
3,538 posts, read 1,532,052 times
Reputation: 922
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoWitnesses View Post
Believe me, I am well aware of these verses. I am also well aware of many that illustrate that his coming contradicts many scriptures. I know you like to assume I do not understand the scriptures...but to the contrary...I am aware of many more scriptures than I used to be, and that's the problem. It's easy to pick and choose the ones that support his crucifixion...but there are others, that when you include them, create a lot of problems.

But when you present those scriptures, there's always an "explanation" for why it really means something else. Take the part "he shall see his seed" which you did not put in bold. Jesus never had any offspring. But there are those that will say that it doesn't really mean "seed," but rather spiritual children or something else. I will get into this again maybe, but for now I will address all of these issues on other forums.

About the verse in Romans 3:23 that says "all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God," that once again is a Paul writing.

If we momentarily remove Paul's work...and reinterpret the things Jesus said by the OT only, and then look at the similarities between what Christ taught, and the path of the mystics in all traditions, and Taoism, and Shamanism...it paints a completely different picture.

It is my opinion, though I may always change it, that God the Father isn't as much of a hard-ass about sin as Paul liked to claim. We all sin at some point, but those who love God will always reach for him and become pure. I already know Paul took a line from Psalms 53 out of context and put it together with the Romans 3:23 verse to give the impression that since we are all imperfect, that we are somehow bankrupt, and just hopeless, unless we accept his version of the theology being presented. And that if we do accept, it salvation is just a piece of cake. It is my contention however, that the OT concept of sin vs. righteousness (mentioned in MANY books), and Christ's own words regarding the righteous and the sinners, and the state of affairs of humanity at large, as evidenced by the spiritual walks of many saints of other cultures throughout the ages...bear a connection. And it is also my contention that Paul is at odds WITH ALL OF IT.

I can't prove it at the moment...and I may never be able to...but exploring that possibility is the focus of my studies right now.

If we take out Pauls verse from Romans 3:23...is there any evidence that John the Baptist sinned? Christ said there was never one "born of woman" that was greater than he.

Peace dudes...I gotta get back to work. I'll catch up on posts and write again when I can..but not sure when.
You need the Holy Spirit to illuminate the scriptures. It's a spiritual exercise not intellectual. Repent and turn to God and he will show you all things.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-12-2011, 09:33 PM
 
12,447 posts, read 6,168,084 times
Reputation: 2024
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoWitnesses View Post
Mike, I read your post regarding the verse from Ecclesiastes.

Thank you for posting that! I was unaware of that particular scripture.

Now about Jesus...I was only saying he sinned "if" such and such, in a conditional way.

Now about whether Jesus himself was an exception to the Ecclesiastes scripture...I think Hebrews is the only book that states Jesus was sin free. I could be wrong.

Jesus even said of himself "why do you call me good...there is none good other than God," so was he trying to say that he himself wasn't sin free? (or good)?
Mark 10:17 And as He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and began askng Him, ''Good teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?'' 18] And Jesus said to him, ''Why do you call Me good? No one is good except for God alone.

Jesus' answer to the man was a veiled statement of His deity. From his question, it was apparent that the man thought that eternal life was something to be obtained through good works. He also apparently thought that Jesus had by His good works found favor with God. In replying to the man's question, Jesus did not deny His deity, but rather, He made a veiled statement of His deity. The man, in calling Jesus good, needed to realize who Jesus really was. Only God is absolutely perfect. Jesus was stating if He was truly good, it was because He is God.

You need to understand that had Jesus committed even one sin, He would not have been qualified to go to the cross and pay the penalty for mans sins. Only someone who was free from sin could pay the price for sin. If Jesus had sinned He would have been under the penalty for sin and there would have been no salvation for anyone.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-12-2011, 09:49 PM
 
Location: NC, USA
7,089 posts, read 8,022,299 times
Reputation: 3821
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoWitnesses View Post
I couldn't agree more!

This is an interesting concept. Because with all of the differing takes on Scripture...the bottom line is, we have our own personal relationship with God to steer us right, and to lead us to green pastures. We can debate endlessly, but it does not affect this basic Truth.
Agreed!!! and the basic truth is that all gods are mythological.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-13-2011, 10:36 AM
 
22,640 posts, read 10,271,815 times
Reputation: 3799
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusty Rhodes View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoWitnesses View Post
I couldn't agree more!

This is an interesting concept. Because with all of the differing takes on Scripture...the bottom line is, we have our own personal relationship with God to steer us right, and to lead us to green pastures. We can debate endlessly, but it does not affect this basic Truth.
Agreed!!! and the basic truth is that all gods are mythological.
According to Dusty whose eyes are clouded by the "dust" on his "rhode".
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-15-2011, 10:56 AM
 
Location: Sylmar, California
817 posts, read 243,225 times
Reputation: 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by JAA2310 View Post
Your interest in learning is noteworthy. When you say that you don't believe that Jesus paid for sins, do you mean that you don't believe that the Bible teaches it, or do you not believe it, even though the Bible does teach it? (I'm not trying to be funny...I am seriously asking).

You seem to be looking through the Scriptures, but at the same time you comment a bit negatively regarding Paul. If we are trying to come to an understanding about certain truths or teachings, and both sides have a different position regarding the Bible, the results cannot be harmonious.

There are people within this forum who believe that the Bible is the Word of God. If Paul's writings declare a certain thing, then we accept it as part of God's Word. People who believe the Bible do not choose to find truth outside the Bible (at least not from other belief systems).

You may have said this, yourself; but I agree wholeheartedly that any conclusion we derive from Scripture must be in harmony with anything and everything else the Bible may have to say reagrding a matter.

The idea of man's sinfulness is well-represented in Scripture without having to rely strictly on Paul's (God-inspired) writings. Psalm 58 speaks a bit to this particular subject:

Ps 58:3-5

3 The wicked are estranged from the womb;
They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.
4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent;
They are like the deaf cobra that stops its ear,
5 Which will not heed the voice of charmers,
Charming ever so skillfully.

We have that well-known verse in Jeremiah 17 (v.9)

The heart is deceitful above all things,
And desperately wicked;
Who can know it?

But I must go out now, as well. I keep thinking that if I were able to save myself through my own efforts (if I could) I would have no need of a Savior. And all through the Bible the coming of the Savior was prefigured and foretold. And finally, He arrived.

We talk about "good news" on this forum. Here it is:

Luke 2:8-11
8 Now there were in the same country shepherds living out in the fields, keeping watch over their flock by night. 9 And behold, an angel of the Lord stood before them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were greatly afraid. 10 Then the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid, for behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy which will be to all people. 11 For there is born to you this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.

Be back later. May God bless you all.
Excellent post bro.


Regarding Psalm 58:3-5....once again, this verse is specifically talking about WICKED people. Not all sinners are wicked. Look at the other Psalms that talk about the RIGHTEOUS and you will see all of the wonderful things that are said. I'm sure you heard a pastor take that out of context, and then have you turn to another page, and another, and another, to drive a point home that we're all BANKRUPT, when we are not.

The Luke part about a Savior..does not tell us he paid for sins. Saving us from sins and paying for them are different. We do use our own efforts...and Christ even tells us "to pick up our cross." Christ never said that there was no effort on our part. Where did he ever say that?

It's a team effort. Not one or the other.

There is a reason I am questioning that though, yes. It's from certain life experiences and seeing the life experiences of many people. We can get into that in a little bit...or feel free to post whatever else you like regarding that topic.




On a different note...did Paul ever mention the things we would need to do to have a treasure in heaven...or only Jesus? If only Jesus....then is it possible the Gospels had to be written becaue Paul omitted many important things? HOw many things can we find that Paul omitted from ALL HIS LETTERS....like first and foremost loving GOD THE FATHER with all our heart, soul, mind and strength as the primary commandment?

Let's start there. Is anyone up for the challenge? I'm a little short on time. Let's not make it about contradictions per se, at the moment. Let's for the moment assume there are none.

How many important things did Paul omit? Because some do not know, that Paul's books WERE WRITTEN FIRST. The Gospels come sequentially first in the Bible...but were written later.
Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


 
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:
Over $79,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2014, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 - Top