The Universal Reconciliation and Eternal torment Debate - There isn't one (Gospel, scriptures)

[Phazelwood]

Originally Posted by twin.spin

What you perceive as silence, might very well be better interpreted by as advice followed Matthew 7:6

Not really, you consistantly cast what you believe are your pearls all the time, so there is no need to think you would stop now in this instance.

[rodgertutt]

Originally Posted by saved33

I do wonder if the 23 URs on this forum are those Jesus was talking about here:

Luke 13
23 Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?” He said to them, 24 “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.

It seems in this case the minority is the better number.

The many who try to enter and will not be able to will be cast into the lake of fire which is the second death (Rev. 20:15).

But everyone who is cast into the lake of fire which is the second death will be saved out of it.

We can be sure of this because the Bible tells us that, sooner or later, God will have (wants if you like) all men to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4)
It is God’s “pleasure” that all mankind be saved.
And “God is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will” (Ephesians 1:11).

Change it to read “in accord with the counsel of what He wants if you like.
Because God says
"My counsel shall stand.
I will do all my pleasure
(the saving of all mankind is part of the pleasure that God wants)
Yea I have spoken it.
I will also bring it to pass.
I have purposed it.
I will also do it."
Isaiah 46:10,11

Job 23:13 “But he stands alone, and who can oppose Him?
He does whatever he pleases.
(the saving of all mankind is part of what He wants that pleases Him).

Isaiah 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
(the saving of all mankind is part of all of which God desires or wants)

So we see God does all His pleasure, He does whatever He pleases, and His word accomplishes that which He desires.
His pleasure, that which He desires and pleases Him is what He wants.

His will = What He wants
What does He want?
THE SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND
Why will it happen?
Because God Himself will see to it that it gets done.

Any cooperation towards our salvation is the result, not the cause of God laying hold on us by His saving grace and causing Jesus to be "choice" in our heart, just like it was in the case of Lydia and Saul of Tarsus.

The opinions of exactly how God will achieve universal salvation may differ from UR to UR just like, as Bright Hope pointed out, the opinions of ETers also vary from person to person about what the Bible teaches about salvation.

[Phazelwood]

Originally Posted by rodgertutt

The opinions of exactly how God will achieve universal salvation may differ from UR to UR just like, as Bright Hope pointed out, the opinions of ETers also vary from person to person about what the Bible teaches about salvation.

From the perspective that it may be possible for a soul to be endlessly separated from God, that variance of opinion is a huge problem.

No one here arguing against UR, can with any certainty, show us that if we believe what they are saying that they have actually drawn us to the truth. Because there is so much variance in beliefs that they may be wrong and someone else may be right about what it takes to be saved.

So wouldn't it be reasonable to think that if we were to forsake the concept that God will save all mankind, that it should be to move towards something on more solid ground than the confusion we are shown by the endless separation believers?


I think it is.

[rodgertutt]

Originally Posted by Phazelwood

From the perspective that it may be possible for a soul to be endlessly separated from God, that variance of opinion is a huge problem.

No one here arguing against UR, can with any certainty, show us that if we believe what they are saying that they have actually drawn us to the truth. Because there is so much variance in beliefs that they may be wrong and someone else may be right about what it takes to be saved.

So wouldn't it be reasonable to think that if we were to forsake the concept that God will save all mankind, that it should be to move towards something on more solid ground than the confusion we are shown by the endless separation believers?

I think it is.

Good point!
Sure sounds reasonable to me.

[saved33]

I clearly see why Jesus called those on His right "Sheep", and those on His left "Goats".

[pcamps]

Originally Posted by saved33

I clearly see why Jesus called those on His right "Sheep", and those on His left "Goats".

Because they were bible believers ?.

[Phazelwood]

Originally Posted by saved33

I clearly see why Jesus called those on His right "Sheep", and those on His left "Goats".

It's ok, God won't give up on you either.

[rodgertutt]

Originally Posted by saved33

I clearly see why Jesus called those on His right "Sheep", and those on His left "Goats".

God loves the goats too.
Their goat nature will be transformed by kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement).

Everyone who enters the lake of fire which is the second death will be saved out of it.

Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46
"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure."

See what other Greek scholars say about it too.
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
Chapter Eleven

Fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners in Matthew 25:46
Concordant Literal, Young’s literal, Wilson’s Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham’s Emphasized, Scarlett’s, J.W. Hanson’s New Covenant, Twentieth Century, Ferrar Fenton, The Western New Testament, Weymouth’s (unedited), Clementson’s, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger’s Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell’s translation (2010).

Regarding the meaning of aionios, many Greek scholars agree with John Wesley Hanson.
AIÓN – AIÓNIOS
AIN -- AINIOS

SEE

THE SCHOLARS CORNER THE CENTER FOR BIBLE STUDIES IN CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM
Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

[boanerges]

By saved33

I clearly see why Jesus called those on His right "Sheep", and those on His left "Goats".

So many forget, or don't know, that goats are clean animals, and where suitable for sacrifice in the old testament.

[katjonjj]

Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow

You seem to think that when Jesus paid for our sins, He paid US, but we have to accept the payment. DebtORs don't get paid for their own debt. If a debtor were offered money for his own debt and accepted it, to become debt-free he would then have to pay the debt off to the one he owes. So, in a spiritual sense, what do you believe we do to pay off the debt once we accept the "money" paid to us?

What some don't understand is that it's like Jesus paid off the debt to the bank directly! Whether we realize it or not, the debt has been paid.

Exactly!!!