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Old 10-14-2011, 04:48 AM
 
Location: New England
37,336 posts, read 28,087,833 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
I read it when you first posted it Finn. I also read it from the website you copied it from. The scriptures tell us we are saved through faith. Not one says by faith alone. Eph. 2:8 tells us we are saved "apart from works." What works? God's works? Are those included Finn?

Post #7 proves nothing. It tells us what we all know and agree with. We are saved by grace through faith.

If man is saved by "faith alone" and doesn't have to act on it, then prove it by example. Anyone can give their interpretation of what scriptures mean, but it's a lot more difficult to prove it by example. In the case of "faith alone," it is impossible. Faith alone is an unBiblical term, which has been added to the word of God.

Katie
Could you be specific in defining works please ?.
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Old 10-14-2011, 04:54 AM
 
9,651 posts, read 1,171,669 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
I said "my post above" and copied the one you didn't address (posted again at the top). Don't worry about addressing it if you think it's off topic. I don't want to argue. I just happen to believe that neither faith or faith plus works is what gives us salvation, since both give credit to people rather than God. Christ died to save the world, not to give us an opportunity to make wise choices and be rewarded for them.
Ok BH, I see what post you are referring to. Sorry about missing it. You say that neither faith nor faith plus works save. You think this gives credit to man. Well all I can say to that is you may THINK that, but the scripture says different. James says we are justified by faith and works. He is writing about our faith and our works, not the faith or works of Jesus. Everyone agrees that the work of Jesus on the cross was done to save us. But man also has a part to play in his salvation. There are a number of scriptures to support that view. Salvation is conditional upon man's faith and response to that faith.

With that said, if you don't believe what James said, then nothing I could say would make a difference. You obviously don't believe that the entire Bible is the inspired, unerring word of God, so we have no common ground for debate.

If I have misunderstood or misread your view of God's word let me know.

Katie
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Old 10-14-2011, 06:18 AM
 
Location: Florida
76,949 posts, read 47,272,488 times
Reputation: 14761
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
I read it when you first posted it Finn. I also read it from the website you copied it from. The scriptures tell us we are saved through faith. Not one says by faith alone. Eph. 2:8 tells us we are saved "apart from works." What works? God's works? Are those included Finn?

Post #7 proves nothing. It tells us what we all know and agree with. We are saved by grace through faith.

If man is saved by "faith alone" and doesn't have to act on it, then prove it by example. Anyone can give their interpretation of what scriptures mean, but it's a lot more difficult to prove it by example. In the case of "faith alone," it is impossible. Faith alone is an unBiblical term, which has been added to the word of God.

Katie
The list on post 7 proves only faith is needed. The man on the cross is an example. According to your reasoning, the man on the cross next to Jesus was not saved, because he did not do any works, and was never water baptised. But you know he was saved, don't you.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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Old 10-14-2011, 06:39 AM
 
9,651 posts, read 1,171,669 times
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Incorrect post
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Old 10-14-2011, 06:54 AM
 
9,651 posts, read 1,171,669 times
Reputation: 739
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
The list on post 7 proves only faith is needed. The man on the cross is an example. According to your reasoning, the man on the cross next to Jesus was not saved, because he did not do any works, and was never water baptised. But you know he was saved, don't you.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Finn, if all I ever read was those scriptures, then I would believe as you do. But there are too many other scriptures where Jesus commands repentance, confessing Jesus is Lord before men, immersion, loving God and neighbor, etc. These things are also necessary for salvation. Do you just throw those out the window?

The thief on the cross was indeed saved. He most certainly did do works. The bottom line is that the thief was saved AFTER he manifested his faith. If faith was alone, the thief would never have opened his mouth, but instead, he showed his faith when he spoke up.

Here's how the thief manifested his faith:

1. The thief feared God, and he rebuked the other thief for not fearing God.

2. He acknowledged his own sinfulness and recognized his helplessness. He realized that his punishment was justly deserved, and stated publicly that Jesus was blameless.

3. By calling Jesus "Lord", he confessed his belief in Christ's divinity. He asked for Jesus' mercy, and expressed faith in Christ's eventual triumph and the establishment of His kingdom.

4. In the midst of his own despair, he recognized the fact that Jesus was exactly who He claimed to be. In the very final minutes of life, he recognized the Kingship of Jesus Christ and the salvation He offered.

5. The thief REPENTED. There can never be salvation without repentance! He recognized the fact that he was a sinner, and realized he was lost. He recognized his his inability to save himself. He knew he couldn't get down off that cross and turn over a new leaf. We don't know what was in the thief's heart, but we do know that he confessed his sin.

Katie


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Old 10-14-2011, 06:59 AM
 
9,651 posts, read 1,171,669 times
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[quote=Finn_Jarber;21280776]

Finn, when will you answer the question: Are the works of God (those ordained by God) included in "apart from works" in Ephesians 2:8?

Katie
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Old 10-14-2011, 07:36 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 6,912,066 times
Reputation: 645
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
The thief on the cross was indeed saved. He most certainly did do works. The bottom line is that the thief was saved AFTER he manifested his faith. If faith was alone, the thief would never have opened his mouth, but instead, he showed his faith when he spoke up.

That is true, but that is not all of the questioning that is going on here.

If you say that water baptism is necessary for salvation, the theif on the cross was never water baptized.

One thing I will point out is when you start saying that the thief didn't need water baptized because he wasn't able to get down and go do it, then you need to cite scriptures that allow that kind of exception.

Otherwise we are left with only a couple of options, either the thief was not saved, or water baptism is not actually a physical requirement but that it is spiritual in some way so that there will never be the need for "exceptions" in the first place.

I think you may find the latter is the most likely, but I will be interested in the scriptures that show that kind of exception to either be stated or implied by interpretation in some manner.

What we need to see is how works can apply to any situation anyone is in where no exceptions are needed. In the case of the thief on the cross I agree works manifested from faith, but the nature of those works is something even a parapalegic would be able to do.
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Old 10-14-2011, 07:43 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 6,338,763 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
That is true, but that is not all of the questioning that is going on here.

If you say that water baptism is necessary for salvation, the theif on the cross was never water baptized.

One thing I will point out is when you start saying that the thief didn't need water baptized because he wasn't able to get down and go do it, then you need to cite scriptures that allow that kind of exception.

Otherwise we are left with only a couple of options, either the thief was not saved, or water baptism is not actually a physical requirement but that it is spiritual in some way so that there will never be the need for "exceptions" in the first place.

I think you may find the latter is the most likely, but I will be interested in the scriptures that show that kind of exception to either be stated or implied by interpretation in some manner.

What we need to see is how works can apply to any situation anyone is in where no exceptions are needed. In the case of the thief on the cross I agree works manifested from faith, but the nature of those works is something even a parapalegic would be able to do.
FWIW, I agree. Nothing that is "physical" is required to enter the "spiritual."

Blessings,
brian
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Old 10-14-2011, 08:52 AM
 
9,651 posts, read 1,171,669 times
Reputation: 739
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
That is true, but that is not all of the questioning that is going on here.

If you say that water baptism is necessary for salvation, the theif on the cross was never water baptized.

One thing I will point out is when you start saying that the thief didn't need water baptized because he wasn't able to get down and go do it, then you need to cite scriptures that allow that kind of exception.

Otherwise we are left with only a couple of options, either the thief was not saved, or water baptism is not actually a physical requirement but that it is spiritual in some way so that there will never be the need for "exceptions" in the first place.
Tu
I think you may find the latter is the most likely, but I will be interested in the scriptures that show that kind of exception to either be stated or implied by interpretation in some manner.

What we need to see is how works can apply to any situation anyone is in where no exceptions are needed. In the case of the thief on the cross I agree works manifested from faith, but the nature of those works is something even a parapalegic would be able to do.
GM Phaze,

The thief lived and died under the old law. Baptism was not required under the old law as far as I can tell. Whether the thief received John's baptism or not, we cannot say. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. Bible doesn't say. We, on the other hand, live under the law of Christ in which Jesus commanded baptism.

One other thing we need to consider is that
Jesus had authority on earth to forgive sins.

Katie
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Old 10-14-2011, 08:59 AM
 
9,651 posts, read 1,171,669 times
Reputation: 739
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
FWIW, I agree. Nothing that is "physical" is required to enter the "spiritual."

Blessings,
brian
Exactly what scripture says that Brian? Were the words the thief spoke not physical? Everything a human being does is physical and that includes believing. Statements like the one you made need scriptural support.

Katie
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