U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jump to a detailed profile or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Business Search - 14 Million verified businesses
Search for:  near: 
 
Old 10-15-2011, 07:42 AM
 
Location: RI
18,969 posts, read 9,058,889 times
Reputation: 1331
Yet I am not ashamed, because I know whom I have BELIEVED and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him for that day.2Tim1:2
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 10-15-2011, 07:50 AM
 
Location: RI
18,969 posts, read 9,058,889 times
Reputation: 1331
However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?" Luke 18:8

Well I got baptized, went to church, told everyone I believed in the bible and that it is the inerrant word of God, I told everyone I believed in Jesus
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-15-2011, 07:51 AM
 
Location: RI
18,969 posts, read 9,058,889 times
Reputation: 1331
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-15-2011, 08:22 AM
 
358 posts, read 161,752 times
Reputation: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

And along with that....

Gal 6:15
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.

2 Cor 5:17
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

Now, back to Ephesians 2:10:

10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
NKJV

So, yes, works do accompany faith. But they can never be the precursor to (or reason for) saving faith. And if we follow these three verses logically, we find that it is only the result of one's having been made a "new creation in Christ". Otherwise, the Bible declares all our "righteousnesses" to be as filthy rags.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-15-2011, 08:47 AM
 
Location: RI
18,969 posts, read 9,058,889 times
Reputation: 1331
Quote:
Originally Posted by JAA2310 View Post
And along with that....

Gal 6:15
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.

2 Cor 5:17
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

Now, back to Ephesians 2:10:

10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
NKJV

So, yes, works do accompany faith. But they can never be the precursor to (or reason for) saving faith. And if we follow these three verses logically, we find that it is only the result of one's having been made a "new creation in Christ". Otherwise, the Bible declares all our "righteousnesses" to be as filthy rags.

I agree. One thing that I would like to be made clear on your post is the misconception that God see's those he created in own image as filthy rags,what the scripture is saying is no matter how righteous one may believe that he is,his righteousness is as filthy rags in comparison to the righteousness of God's.


For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

What Jesus is saying here is, do not be deceived into thinking righteousness is an outward thing.Today's modern equivalent is thinking you are righteous because you have been baptized,you believe the bible is the inerrant word of God, you do this that and the other,while all these things maybe of profit,to trust in them over LIVING by faith in the here and now is nothing more than self righteous.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-16-2011, 12:51 PM
 
2,637 posts, read 1,018,440 times
Reputation: 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by JAA2310 View Post
And along with that....

Gal 6:15
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.

2 Cor 5:17
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

Now, back to Ephesians 2:10:

10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
NKJV

So, yes, works do accompany faith. But they can never be the precursor to (or reason for) saving faith. And if we follow these three verses logically, we find that it is only the result of one's having been made a "new creation in Christ". Otherwise, the Bible declares all our "righteousnesses" to be as filthy rags.
Hi JAA, Is the term "saving faith" used in the Bible? It may well be but I don't recall seein it. Just curious.

Kate
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-16-2011, 03:09 PM
 
358 posts, read 161,752 times
Reputation: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
Hi JAA, Is the term "saving faith" used in the Bible? It may well be but I don't recall seein it. Just curious.

Kate
Hi, Katie,

No, the term, as such, is not found in the Bible (to my knowledge). But the fact of saving faith is found in a verse like Eph 2:8 (which has been cited quite a bit in the various posts here).

People often speak of God's saving grace. The term, as such, is not found in Scripture, either (that I am aware of). But that same Eph 2:8 makes it quite clear that we are saved by God's grace.

I know you've been very interested in studying, and contributing to, this topic. I was reading an interesting passage before (Hebrews 10:38-39). I don't recall if it had been mentioned here previously:

Heb 10:38-39

38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

It seems to incorporate becoming saved and living by that faith. It kind of reminds me of Hebrews 6:4-6:

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

But then notice verse 9:

9 But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner.

Take care.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-16-2011, 03:54 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,009,832 times
Reputation: 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
Ok BH, I see what post you are referring to. Sorry about missing it. You say that neither faith nor faith plus works save. You think this gives credit to man. Well all I can say to that is you may THINK that, but the scripture says different. James says we are justified by faith and works. He is writing about our faith and our works, not the faith or works of Jesus. Everyone agrees that the work of Jesus on the cross was done to save us. But man also has a part to play in his salvation. There are a number of scriptures to support that view. Salvation is conditional upon man's faith and response to that faith.

With that said, if you don't believe what James said, then nothing I could say would make a difference. You obviously don't believe that the entire Bible is the inspired, unerring word of God, so we have no common ground for debate.

If I have misunderstood or misread your view of God's word let me know.

Katie
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
Can you be specific about what works follow your own faith? You say that the thief on the cross had enough works to be saved. Are you, Katie, personally allowed to demonstrate the exact same kind of works as he did and be saved because of it? If not, why? Are there different rules for each person? If so, how does any one person know when they have satisfied God's requirement for their own works?

I agree with Phazelwood about the thief on the cross - either water baptism is required or it's not, unless there is an exception clause. I knew a wonderful 15-year-old girl who was a believer. She won the Outstanding Christian Character award at her Christian school. When she got very sick from a chronic illness and was in ICU, she thought about how she had never been baptized and was "sprinkled" in her hospital bed before she died. I was there by her side. If someone told me she went to "hell" because she was not dunked, I would probably tell them they were insane and feel like punching them. Of course there is no exception written in the bible for theives on crosses or little girls who are dying in the hospital, so can you just read that into scripture because you think it's a good idea? Or do you put your faith and trust in a loving God who would never have rules for something we must do physically to be saved spiritually? I go with the latter.



Justification is not equivalent to salvation.

The word of God is Jesus Christ. The bible in its current state in very obviously not perfect. All you have to do is compare two translations to know that, because they contradict each other. Then you compare it to the orginal languages and you find even more problems. As mentioned on the forum before, it's not every single word in the bible that's important. It's the message that God's Word (Jesus Christ) revealed. Love God and love your neighbor as yourself. These two fulfill all the other laws. Jesus said that and He lived it.

Speaking of justification:

Romans 4:

1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 " Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin."
Hi Katie. I responded to your post several pages back. Maybe you missed it?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-16-2011, 06:15 PM
 
2,637 posts, read 1,018,440 times
Reputation: 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow View Post
Hi Katie. I responded to your post several pages back. Maybe you missed it?
Quote:
Can you be specific about what works follow your own faith? You say that the thief on the cross had enough works to be saved. Are you, Katie, personally allowed to demonstrate the exact same kind of works as he did and be saved because of it? If not, why? Are there different rules for each person? If so, how does any one person know when they have satisfied God's requirement for their own works?

I agree with Phazelwood about the thief on the cross - either water baptism is required or it's not, unless there is an exception clause. I knew a wonderful 15-year-old girl who was a believer. She won the Outstanding Christian Character award at her Christian school. When she got very sick from a chronic illness and was in ICU, she thought about how she had never been baptized and was "sprinkled" in her hospital bed before she died. I was there by her side. If someone told me she went to "hell" because she was not dunked, I would probably tell them they were insane and feel like punching them. Of course there is no exception written in the bible for theives on crosses or little girls who are dying in the hospital, so can you just read that into scripture because you think it's a good idea? Or do you put your faith and trust in a loving God who would never have rules for something we must do physically to be saved spiritually? I go with the latter.



Justification is not equivalent to salvation.

The word of God is Jesus Christ. The bible in its current state in very obviously not perfect. All you have to do is compare two translations to know that, because they contradict each other. Then you compare it to the orginal languages and you find even more problems. As mentioned on the forum before, it's not every single word in the bible that's important. It's the message that God's Word (Jesus Christ) revealed. Love God and love your neighbor as yourself. These two fulfill all the other laws. Jesus said that and He lived it.

Speaking of justification:

Romans 4:

1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 " Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin."
Hi BH,
Thank you for being so patient. I'll try to address all of the above. If I can't get to it all tonight, I will in the a.m.

What works follow my own faith? I'm not sure I am giving you the answer you are looking for, but I'll do my best. I was born and raised catholic. I went to catholic school, so I can never remember a time that I didn't believe in Jesus. But did I have faith? In retrospect, I don't think so. In 1977, I joined a Bible study group, and it was at that time I became a christian. I remember reading Galatians 5 and the works of the flesh, and it hit me like a ton of bricks. I repented and was baptized as soon as I possible could be. Did I earn God's forgiveness? No I did not. Did I boast in my salvation? No, but I rejoiced in it. Did God owe me salvation? No, He did not.

As for the thief, I never said anything about him "having enough" works to be saved. I simply listed the things he said, which showed his faith.

I don't believe that a person can demonstrate the exact kind of works today that the thief did and be saved. Why? Because we live under a different dispensation than the thief. We are still saved through faith, but the works required of us have changed. We are not only asked to believe in Jesus as the Son of God, we are told to repent (as the thief did), to confess Jesus is Lord (as the thief did), and be immersed (not commanded under the old law, which the thief lived under).

Hebrews 5:9 tells us, "He is the author of salvation to all those who obey Him." If you obey, then you know you have satisfied God's requirements. I don't think God's commandments are burdensome. IMHO, none of us can obey God's commands perfectly, but because of the blood of Jesus, God sees us as perfect.

And finally, the "rules," as you call them, are the same for all of us. Just follow the commandments of Jesus Christ. He told us to have faith, to repent, to confess Him with our mouths, to be immersed, to love God and neighbor, and to be faithful unto death.
************************************************

Immersion was not required of the thief who lived and died under the Old Law. Baptism was not part of the law. It is required under the law of Christ. That is the law we live under.

As for the 15 year old (very sad), my heart says she is with God. After all, she was only a child, and children are innocent in His eyes. But the little girl isn't the norm, so we don't teach people that sprinkling is the way to go. Jesus commanded immersion. We teach what He commanded. And by the way, I do put my faith and trust in a loving God who commanded me to do something physical to be saved spiritually. "Unless one is born of water and Spirit, he will not enter the kingdom of heaven." (John 3:5)
*************************************************
I disagree with you. Justification/forgiveness/salvation are different ways of saying the same thing. If justification is not the same, then what do you think it is?

If you believe that Jesus is the word, then you have to believe the word is perfect.

I also believe that the Holy Spirit who had the power to create the world, and give supernatural gifts to men, also had the power to keep the truth of His word intact, and His plan for our redemption unscathed.
************************************************** *

BH, I have a question for you. Are you universalist?

And did I miss answering any of your posts or questions?

Katie
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-16-2011, 06:30 PM
 
2,637 posts, read 1,018,440 times
Reputation: 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by JAA2310 View Post
Hi, Katie,

No, the term, as such, is not found in the Bible (to my knowledge). But the fact of saving faith is found in a verse like Eph 2:8 (which has been cited quite a bit in the various posts here).

People often speak of God's saving grace. The term, as such, is not found in Scripture, either (that I am aware of). But that same Eph 2:8 makes it quite clear that we are saved by God's grace.

I know you've been very interested in studying, and contributing to, this topic. I was reading an interesting passage before (Hebrews 10:38-39). I don't recall if it had been mentioned here previously:

Heb 10:38-39

38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

It seems to incorporate becoming saved and living by that faith. It kind of reminds me of Hebrews 6:4-6:

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

But then notice verse 9:

9 But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner.

Take care.
Okay, thanks. I didn't think it was actually in the Bible, but wasn't sure. I agree that the concept is there though, and is worth really digging into. Do you think it is the same as obedient faith? I know that term is in the Bible.

Yes, we are saved by God's grace. I love the book of Hebrews, and the scripture, "The just shall live by faith" really makes me think about exactly what faith is. It's pretty tough to ignore that faith always manifests itself. I think it's a word that really needs qualifying, the same as the word "works" needs qualifying.

So just exactly what does it mean "live by faith?" I got to thinking about Romans 4:11-12 today. We're told to walk in the steps of Abraham, to have the faith of Abraham. Exactly what does that entail?

So tonite when I read my Bible, I will read Hebrews 6 and think on it. I'm already puzzling over "things that accompany salvation." Meanwhile, maybe you can think on Romans 4:11-12. Hopefully, God will give us both better understanding of these passages.

Katie
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $84,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:44 PM.

© 2005-2014, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 - Top