Bible examples of those saved by faith alone (testament, sanctification, Savior)

[katiemygirl]

Originally Posted by Phazelwood

Well, let me put it this way. If the bible applies to everyone, but you can't say how God deals with baptism for each and every person, I'd say the answer can be found through spiritual eyes.

I personally see that baptism is something anyone can do, and will be an inherant act of that faith, physical water baptism perhaps may be something someone chooses to do and there is nothing wrong with that.

But to teach about physical water baptism in the context that if it doesn't happen they might not be saved, but have no answer as to how it would apply to someone who was incapable of having it is negligent on your part as a teacher.

To dwell on the spiritual is to see how everyone can be baptized because it will be to understand the filling of the holy spirit and having some tub of water to dunk in is irrelevant.

Jesus said to make disciples of all nations by baptizing them. He told us to teach others to obey all He commanded. He commanded baptism, not me. I'm just doing the best I can to do what He says. I take Jesus' words to heart and do the best I can to obey Him. I don't argue with Him. Each of us has to give an account. He will be the judge. I trust he will be a fair and just judge. I have full confidence in Him and His word.

Blessings,

Katie

[katiemygirl]

JAA2310;21316238]We have quite a topic here that seems to just raise more questions and require further study. It's a wonderful thing, yet very challenging (at least for me). There's so much to cover.

I have been on the forums for a year now, and I can't tell you how much I have learned. I spend hours digging into God's word deeper than I ever have. This is what I love most about the forums. They make me test my own beliefs to make sure they are true and entirely Biblical.

Many have emphasized here in this thread that our faith is evidenced or witnessed by the works that accompany it. But these are not works that we do to merit anything (this we've seen), but they are the result or outworking of the faith which we now have in Christ

Agree! We manifest our faith in Jesus because we love Him. That's how I see it anyway. It is love, trust in His promises, helplessness and knowing we can do nothing in and of ourselves.

This is another (huge) topic that we should probably leave for now. But my point is that as born-again believers, our passion is to serve God, which will manifest itself in the things that we do. I believe that this speaks to your reference to an obedient faith. You referred to baptism; but this obedience will manifest itself in our desire to be obedient to everything God would have us do (you correctly mentioned the love that God wants us to have for one another as an example). Because of our "faith", it becomes our heart's desire to do the will of God. When we obey the will of God, it is now not to qualify us to become saved. It is something we now do because we are saved.

I agreed with you right up to the last two sentences. I obeyed the will of God to become saved, not because I was already saved. It is impossible to have faith alone unless it is dead faith. Faith is what causes us to obey. That is what obedient faith is that is spoken of in Acts 6:7. Notice JAA that in every conversion example in Acts, belief and baptism go hand in hand. Time and again we read, they believed and were baptized. It was generally IMMEDIATELY. No one waited for six weeks of classes, or until a particular special Sunday to be baptized. They did it on the spot. That speaks volumes.

When we read in James 2, "...Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works", faith is already an established fact. My works are now seen as an evidence of my faith. I believe that this is where we see an "obedient" faith.

I agree that works are evidence of faith. This is not only true for the christian, but for the unbeliever who first has faith in Jesus. His/her faith is evidenced by works.

Were you asking if "saving" faith was the same as obedient faith? I believe that saving faith is that which comes by the hearing of the Word (the Bible says it's the gift of God). Once we have received this faith, it manifests itself in the life of the believer in his/her desire to be obedient to the will of God.

No, I only wondered if the term "saving faith" was in the Bible. I think "obedient faith" means exactly what it says. It is a faith that manifests itself in obedience. I think Abraham had that kind of faith. When we first meet Abram in Genesis 12, and he is told by God to leave his homeland, Abram obeys. He packs up his family and heads for places unknown. And then of course, we are given the ultimate example of obedient faith when Abraham is ready to sacrifice Isaac. I wonder if any of us has the faith of Abraham? That kind of faith seems almost out of reach to me. Yet I look back at my life, and I remember how little faith I had compared to the faith I have now. I guess God wasn't kidding when He said faith comes by hearing the word.

I'm focusing on Abraham right now. What does it mean to walk in the steps of Abraham? Does it mean to simply believe and trust? Or is it more? Doesn't his obedient faith play a part in our walk also?

God Bless,

Katie

[Phazelwood]

Originally Posted by katiemygirl

Jesus said to make disciples of all nations by baptizing them. He told us to teach others to obey all He commanded. He commanded baptism, not me. I'm just doing the best I can to do what He says. I take Jesus' words to heart and do the best I can to obey Him. I don't argue with Him. Each of us has to give an account. He will be the judge. I trust he will be a fair and just judge. I have full confidence in Him and His word.

Blessings,

Katie

Well Katie, I am just pointing out the reality of things. It is not arguing with Jesus to learn more.

[katiemygirl]

Originally Posted by Phazelwood

Well Katie, I am just pointing out the reality of things. It is not arguing with Jesus to learn more.

Of course you are arguing with Jesus. He is the one who commanded baptism. He told YOU to go make disciples of all nations baptizing them. That's not something I came up with on my own. So when you question or start coming up with straw man scenarios, you are challenging Jesus, not me. Do you honestly think you can get into heaven and not obey what Jesus commanded YOU to do?

Matthew 28:18-20 is about as plain and simple language as you will find in the Bible. Anyone who doesn't believe that they have to do what Jesus said to do is risking their salvation.

I can't believe anyone would argue about having to be baptized. What is the big deal?

Whether you believe baptism is necessary doesn't matter. Jesus told you to do it. That should be good enough for you. Jesus said IF YOU LOVE ME YOU WILL KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS. You wanna argue with that? Well more power to ya!

Katie

[AlabamaStorm]

Wow...gone for a few months and come back to the same topics of what saves. I don't believe scripture teaches that faith or baptism causes a person to be born of the Spirit. In that sense, faith nor baptism actually saves.

Faith, be it alone or with works, is of the law and cannot justify the sinner before God. Jesus identified faith as being of the "weighter things of the law":

Mat 23:23 `Woe to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye give tithe of the mint, and the dill, and the cumin, and did neglect the weightier things of the Law--the judgment, and the kindness, and the faith; these it behoved you to do, and those not to neglect.

However, the deeds of the law, and this includes faith, will not justify anyone before God:

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

The reason for giving the law, and for giving commandments is to increase guilt and condemnation of the flesh. Not in order to justify the flesh:

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that
every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Neither faith, nor baptism for that matter, can give life to a dead sinner. Faith cannot arise out of the natural man's (spiritually dead) nature.

1Co 2:14 and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know them , because spiritually they are discerned;

Rom 8:7 because the mind of the flesh is enmity to God, for to the law of God it doth not subject itself,
Rom 8:8 for neither is it able; and those who are in the flesh are not able to please God.

The natural man cannot have faith. The natural man cannot be subject to the law of God, of which faith is apart. The natural man cannot have faith. It is impossible for faith to arise in the natural man's heart. Therefore it is impossible for the natural man to come to life by or through faith. The natural man must first be brought to life by the Spirit. A new heart and spirit must first be created within the man.

Eze 36:26 And I have given to you a new heart, And a new spirit I give in your midst, And I have turned aside the heart of stone out of your flesh, And I have given to you a heart of flesh.

Only the Spirit of Jesus can give this new heart and spirit to the dead sinner. Nothing else can perform this act of creation. Not faith and certainly not baptism.

And, only the death and resurrection of Jesus can forgive sins and justify the ungodly, as stated here in the Gospel:

1Co 15:1 MOREOVER, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Those born of the Spirit (ie: new heart and new spirit), receive this Gospel in the power of the Spirit and with full (much) assurance:

1Th 1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

Those born of the Spirit, believe the Gospel. They believe that Jesus died for their sins and was resurrected for their justification. The Spirit of Jesus lives in those people who believe this Gospel.

Those who do not believe the Gospel will look to their own works, their own human faith, their baptism, their communion, their confession, their testimony and their own self will to save them. The Spirit of Jesus does not live in those who do not believe the Gospel.

Regarding baptism: Jesus clearly said that the Kingdom of God comes to a person with out observation:

Luk 17:20 And having been questioned by the Pharisees, when the reign of God doth come, he answered them, and said, `The reign of God doth not come with observation;

We know that baptism is performed with observation.

Baptism is clearly observed by the one who baptizes as well as the one who is being baptized. Whatever is taking place during baptism, it is unrelated to entering the Kingdom of God (ie: being born of the Spirit).

[Bright Hope for Tomorrow]

Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm

Wow...gone for a few months and come back to the same topics of what saves.

Welcome back, Bama! Good to have you on here.

[JAA2310]

Originally Posted by katiemygirl

I have been on the forums for a year now, and I can't tell you how much I have learned. I spend hours digging into God's word deeper than I ever have. This is what I love most about the forums. They make me test my own beliefs to make sure they are true and entirely Biblical.



Agree! We manifest our faith in Jesus because we love Him. That's how I see it anyway. It is love, trust in His promises, helplessness and knowing we can do nothing in and of ourselves.



I agreed with you right up to the last two sentences. I obeyed the will of God to become saved, not because I was already saved. It is impossible to have faith alone unless it is dead faith. Faith is what causes us to obey. That is what obedient faith is that is spoken of in Acts 6:7. Notice JAA that in every conversion example in Acts, belief and baptism go hand in hand. Time and again we read, they believed and were baptized. It was generally IMMEDIATELY. No one waited for six weeks of classes, or until a particular special Sunday to be baptized. They did it on the spot. That speaks volumes.



I agree that works are evidence of faith. This is not only true for the christian, but for the unbeliever who first has faith in Jesus. His/her faith is evidenced by works.



No, I only wondered if the term "saving faith" was in the Bible. I think "obedient faith" means exactly what it says. It is a faith that manifests itself in obedience. I think Abraham had that kind of faith. When we first meet Abram in Genesis 12, and he is told by God to leave his homeland, Abram obeys. He packs up his family and heads for places unknown. And then of course, we are given the ultimate example of obedient faith when Abraham is ready to sacrifice Isaac. I wonder if any of us has the faith of Abraham? That kind of faith seems almost out of reach to me. Yet I look back at my life, and I remember how little faith I had compared to the faith I have now. I guess God wasn't kidding when He said faith comes by hearing the word.

I'm focusing on Abraham right now. What does it mean to walk in the steps of Abraham? Does it mean to simply believe and trust? Or is it more? Doesn't his obedient faith play a part in our walk also?

God Bless,

Katie

Thank you for your post. Your point about baptism is interesting. I know that in our respective environments we usually don't have the option to become baptized immediately upon believing. Yet we see examples in the Bible where it did essentially happen.

I'm thinking that it's really not critical (the timing, not the act), since baptism is an outward sign of our profession of faith. Yes, we are commanded to be baptized. But if circumstances make water baptism impossible for the time being, the salvation of the person who should be baptized is not jeopardized. God has commanded us to be water-baptized. But it is not a condition for salvation.

I'm still a bit unclear about our having faith before we are saved. The faith (believing on Christ) and the repentance seen in us as we are being drawn to Christ through the Gospel is effectively all part of the salvation process. When we hear the Gospel, we are made aware of our dilemma before God. Because our sins are what have us in trouble, as we believe that it is only through the atoning work of Christ work on our behalf that we can be saved, we also repent of our sins in the process.

We read the following in Luke 24:45-47:

45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures. 46 Then He said to them, "Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

There is a significant amount of Scripture that tells us to believe on Christ to become saved. This would be the reason why the teaching of "faith alone" is so prevalent. Believing on Christ is our response to what we hear in the faithful preaching of the gospel if God, indeed, is effectually working it in our hearts to draw us to Christ. But since this conversion, as it were, denotes a changed life, this "faith" which we now have by God's grace must now characterize us in all that we do. We now love God, and desire to serve Him as our Lord....and trust Him.

And the idea of obedience is also connected with the gospel. We have a couple of verses that speak of those who "obey not the gospel". I believe this would be reflected in passages like Mark 1:14,15 and Acts 17:30:

Mark 1:14-15
14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Acts 17:30
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Acts 20:21 refers to "repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ".

God bless.

[AlabamaStorm]

Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow

Welcome back, Bama! Good to have you on here.

Thanks, nice to see you here also .

[saved33]

Originally Posted by JAA2310

Thank you for your post. Your point about baptism is interesting. I know that in our respective environments we usually don't have the option to become baptized immediately upon believing. Yet we see examples in the Bible where it did essentially happen.

I'm thinking that it's really not critical (the timing, not the act), since baptism is an outward sign of our profession of faith. Yes, we are commanded to be baptized. But if circumstances make water baptism impossible for the time being, the salvation of the person who should be baptized is not jeopardized. God has commanded us to be water-baptized. But it is not a condition for salvation.

I'm still a bit unclear about our having faith before we are saved. The faith (believing on Christ) and the repentance seen in us as we are being drawn to Christ through the Gospel is effectively all part of the salvation process. When we hear the Gospel, we are made aware of our dilemma before God. Because our sins are what have us in trouble, as we believe that it is only through the atoning work of Christ work on our behalf that we can be saved, we also repent of our sins in the process.

We read the following in Luke 24:45-47:

45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures. 46 Then He said to them, "Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

There is a significant amount of Scripture that tells us to believe on Christ to become saved. This would be the reason why the teaching of "faith alone" is so prevalent. Believing on Christ is our response to what we hear in the faithful preaching of the gospel if God, indeed, is effectually working it in our hearts to draw us to Christ. But since this conversion, as it were, denotes a changed life, this "faith" which we now have by God's grace must now characterize us in all that we do. We now love God, and desire to serve Him as our Lord....and trust Him.

And the idea of obedience is also connected with the gospel. We have a couple of verses that speak of those who "obey not the gospel". I believe this would be reflected in passages like Mark 1:14,15 and Acts 17:30:

Mark 1:14-15
14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Acts 17:30
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Acts 20:21 refers to "repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ".

God bless.

It is interesting to note that Paul himself stated that God did not send him to baptize, but to preach the gospel.

1 Corinthians 1:17
For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

If people search scripture to find God's Truths, they will find them.

GOD does the actual baptizing of us, giving us his Holy Spirit, upon our time of belief.

MAN baptizes one into a physical church of believers.

Previous in 1 Cor. 1, Paul states, 11My brothers, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephasa”; still another, “I follow Christ.” 13Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized intob the name of Paul? 14I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15so no one can say that you were baptized into my name.

Paul ends with this:

30It is because of him [GOD] that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written: “Let him who boasts boast in the Lord.”d


Always thank God for bringing you into His family of believers!!!

[Phazelwood]

Originally Posted by katiemygirl

Of course you are arguing with Jesus. He is the one who commanded baptism. He told YOU to go make disciples of all nations baptizing them. That's not something I came up with on my own. So when you question or start coming up with straw man scenarios, you are challenging Jesus, not me. Do you honestly think you can get into heaven and not obey what Jesus commanded YOU to do?

Matthew 28:18-20 is about as plain and simple language as you will find in the Bible. Anyone who doesn't believe that they have to do what Jesus said to do is risking their salvation.

I can't believe anyone would argue about having to be baptized. What is the big deal?

Whether you believe baptism is necessary doesn't matter. Jesus told you to do it. That should be good enough for you. Jesus said IF YOU LOVE ME YOU WILL KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS. You wanna argue with that? Well more power to ya!

Katie

It is easy to say I am arguing with Jesus when I asked a reasonable question and posed a real scenario concerning it to you. It is easy because then you can set the stage to justify not dealing with your lack of knowledge.

While I appreciate that you were honest in saying you could not answer my question that doesn't change the fact that now you are trying to imply that lack of knowledge is meaningless.

Again I am not arguing with Jesus, I am posing things to YOU, please don't equate your knowledge with that of Jesus it just doesn't work well.