U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jump to a detailed profile or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Business Search - 14 Million verified businesses
Search for:  near: 
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 03-27-2012, 09:00 PM
 
3,644 posts, read 1,763,820 times
Reputation: 1019

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank4YAHWEH View Post
Any simpleton knows that one can not be their own father and that one can not be their own son!
Three distinct "persons" in one God. The Father is not the Son and the Son is not the Father, but the Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father in the Holy Spirit which are ONE.

Attempting to reconcile this with our finite brains is to bring the Creator of the Universe down from Heaven. Claim it by faith. The Scriptures express this complex concept called the Godhead.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 03-27-2012, 09:44 PM
 
12,890 posts, read 6,961,358 times
Reputation: 2388
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank4YAHWEH View Post
WHO IS THE WORD?
(John 1:1)

In John 1:1 the writer is very plain in telling us who the 'word' was. He says the word was God. Now we must find out who God is and we will then know who the word is. Let's see who John says God is. Let's go to v.18 of this same chapter. John tells us that God is the Father, not Jesus the only begotten son. Now if we can believe John that God is the Father let's examine the Scripture back to v.1. We find the word 'God' in v.13 and John said God was the Father. In v.12, we find the word 'God,' and keeping this in context with v. 18, John has said God is the Father, not the son. Now let's go back to v.6. Here we find the word 'God'. Again staying in the context of John 1:18, John has said that God is the Father, not the son.Now let's go to v.2. We find the word 'God' again. Staying in context with John 1:18. John tells us God is the Father, not the son Jesus. Now last of all, let's go to v.1 where we find God two times. Again staying in context with v.18, we find John telling us that God is the Father ,not the son. Since John says God is the Father then the 'word' was God the Father. not Jesus the son. Believest thou this? Since God is made up of His 'word', the 'word' can be with God and be God - not another person. According to John there is only one person mentioned in John 1:1. That one person is God the Father, the Almighty.

In John 1:14, this same 'word' that was God the Father (because the word was in the Father) produced His son Jesus. The 'word' in John 1:14 is not Jesus. The 'word', God the Father, produced Jesus. The word (in God the Father) 'made' flesh or an earthly fleshly tabernacle for Jesus to dwell in. This was not a new thing because the same 'word' in God the Father had produced a fleshly tabernacle for Adam, for Eve, for monkeys, for giraffes, for elephants, and etc. This same thing is shown in 1 Cor. 15:39 where Paul said "all flesh is not the same flesh but there is one kind of flesh for men, another flesh of beats, another of fishes and another of birds. The 'word' with and in God the Father made or produced all of those kinds of flesh and later produced a fleshly body for Jesus.

A deeper understanding of this is that he word or doctrine in God the Father produced the flesh [word or doctrine] in Jesus Christ's mind. We find Jesus' flesh being his word in John 6:51 and 63. We have enclosed an article on John 1:1-18 with lines drawn on it (http://frank4yahweh.tripod.com/PRE-EXIST1.jpg - broken link) so you can better understand that the 'word' in John 1:1 is God the Father, not Jesus the son.

One other point on John 1:1 is found in John 20:31. "But these are written, that ye might believe Jesus is the Christ, the son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." This is John's reason for writing this whole book of John. His reason was to prove that Jesus was the son of God and not that Jesus was God. One is completely out of context when saying that John 1:1 is saying Jesus was God. That is the opposite in John's purpose for writing this book of John. Let's stay in context throughout this whole book of John by understanding the three reasons that John give for writing this whole book. 1. That Jesus is the Christ. 2. That Jesus is the son of God. 3. That we might have life by believing what he wrote.

Eddie Baker
Rt. 2, Box 137
Moberly, MO 65270
Ph # 816 263 9709

Yahchanan [John] 1:18 - No man has seen Yahweh at any time; the only begotten son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared [him] (A.K.J.V. - Edited and with Yahweh's Name Restored).

Webmaster's Comment:

Father Yahweh's word is just that, Father Yahweh's word. Father Yahweh's word is not a separate being apart from Himself that pre-existed with Him in the beginning and that created the heavens and the earth and all things in them. Yahshua is not his and our Father Yahweh's word, but the spokesman of his and our Father Yahweh's word in this last time period as Hebrews 1:1-2 makes perfectly clear. This is why his name/title is called "The Word of Yahweh" in Revelation. Note that this does not say that Yahshua "IS" or "WAS" the word of Yahweh! Nowhere in Scripture does it ever teach that Yahshua "IS" or "WAS" the word of Yahweh or that Yahshua "IS" "God"!

Many are deceived into believing that the "word" (that has been deliberately CAPITALIZED on and PERSONIFIED in translation) spoken of in Yahchanan [John] 1:1 is literally Father Yahweh's word as a separate being apart from Himself that pre-existed as His son Yahshua. This was done to confuse one into believing in a "Triune God".

Note John 1:1 in the following translations which does not give personification of Father Yahweh's word as a separate being apart from Himself:

1. “All things were made by it” (Tyndale, 1534)

CLICK HERE to see John 1:1 in Tyndale New Testament.


2. “The worde ... All things were made by the same” (Coverdale, 1535)
3. “All things were made by it and without it nothing was made” (Matthews’ Bible, 1537)
4. “All things were made by it and without it was made nothing that was made” (The Great Bible, 1539)
5. “All things were made by it” (Taverner NT, 1540)
6. “All things were made by it”(Whittingham, 1557)
7. “All things were made by it” (The Geneva Bible, 1560)
8. “All things were made by it” (Bishops’ Bible, 1568)
9. “All things were made by it” (Tomson NT, 1607)
10. “Nor can anything be produced that has been made without it [Reason]” (John LeClerc, 1701)
11. “The word ... through the same all things were made” (Mortimer, 1761)
12. “In the beginning was Wisdom ... All things were made by it” (Wakefield NT, 1791)
13. “The Word ... All things were made by it” (Alexander Campbell, founder of the Church of Christ, 1826)
14. “The Word ... All things were formed by it” (Dickinson, A New and Corrected Version of the NT, 1833)
15. “All things were made by it” (Barnard, 1847)
16. “Through it [the logos] everything was done” (Wilson, Emphatic Diaglott, 1864)

In the beginning was the LOGOS, and the LOGOS was with GOD, and the LOGOS was God. This was in the Beginning with GOD. Through it every thing was done; and without it not even one thing was done, which has been done.

17. “All things through it arose into being” (Folsom, 1869)
18. “All things were made through it” (Sharpe, Revision of the Authorized English Version, 1898)
19. “All things were made by the Love thought” (Goddard, 1916)
20. “All things came into being in this God-conception and apart from it came not anything into being that came into being” (Overbury, 1925)
21. “All came into being through it” (Knoch, 1926)
22. “The word ... the living expression of the Father’s thought” (Blount, Half Hours with John’sGospel, 1930)
23. “The word was god” (C.C. Torrey, The Four Gospels, 1933)
24. “Through the divine reason all things came into being” (Wade, The Documents of the NT Translated, 1934)
25. “Without it nothing created sprang into existence” (Johannes Greber, 1937)
26. “It was in the beginning with God, by its activity all things came into being” (Martin Dibelius, The Message of Jesus Christ, translated by F.C. Grant, 1939)
27. “Through its agency all things came into being and apart from it has not one thing come to be” (William Temple, Archbishop of Canterbury, Readings from St. John’s Gospel, 1939)
28. “The energizing mind was in existence from the very beginning” (Crofts, The Four Gospels, 1949)
29. “First there was the Thought and the Thought was in God ... He, him” (Hoare, Translation from the Greek, 1949)
30. “In the beginning God expressed Himself ... That personal expression, that word ... He” (J.B. Philips, NT in Modern English, 1958)
31. “All was done through it” (Tomanek, 1958)
32. “The Word was the life principle [in creation]” (William Barclay, NT, 1969)
33. “This same idea was at home with God when life began ... He” (Jordan, Cottonpatch Version, 1970)
34. “All things became what they are through the Word” (Dale, NT, 1973)
35. “Within the Word was life” (Edington, 1976)
36. “It was his last werd. Ony it come first” (Gospels in Scouse, 1977)
37. “By it everything had being, and without it nothing had being” (Schonfield, The Original NT, 1985)
38. “All things were made through the Word” (Inclusive Language Lectionary, 1986)
39. “In the beginning was the Plan of Yahweh. All things were done according to it” (Hawkins, Book of Yahweh, 1987)
40. “All things happened through it” (Gaus, Unvarnished NT, 1991)
41. “In the beginning was the divine word and wisdom ... everything came to be by means of it” (Robert Miller, The Complete Gospels, Annotated Scholars’ Version, 1992


Clearly Yahshua is the spokesman of Father Yahweh's word in this last time period!

http://www.bible.cc/john/12-49.htm


Hebrews 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

John Chapter One

John 1:1 in the Greek reads "God was the word," but most if not all English versions read, "the Word was God." This reverses the phrase, and changes the meaning. To say "God was the word" is not the same as, "the Word was God."

In the Greek, the letter l in logos is not capitalized, even tho when proper, some Greek words are capitalized. But in English versions, the l is capitalized - improperly. Why? To enhance the doctrine of the Trinity, which gave birth to the theory of the Pre-existence of Yahshua.

In verse 3 & 10, the Greek word dia is translated "through." Since Scriptures both in the O.T. and the N.T. tell us that Yahweh (the Supreme Being) (1) created all things, (2) with no help from anyone, and (3) that no Deity was with him in the act of creating, then John 1:3 must agree with these Scriptures, especially with those in the O.T. (since the Messiah and the Apostles proved their doctrine by the O.T.). After all, The N.T. depends on the O.T. for its reason to exist. Please see the paper "Who Is the Creator?"

"Through" is not technically a wrong translation of the word dia, if the message of the sentence indicates this. But just as Hebrews 1:1-2, and Col. 1:15-17, the word dia should be translated "on account of," or "because of." Reason? The message in the sentence demands this. The word dia is often translated "on account of," or "because of."

Thanks,

Voy

Please see:

YAHSHUA: Did He Pre-exist?
An Explanation Of Our Views
By Voy Wilks
10/23/90


Following is an excerpt from:

Jesus Did Not Pre-Exist (http://cdelph.org/jesus.html - broken link)


In The Beginning Was The Word (John 1)

John's Gospel commences with this statement, and goes on to state that this word was with God and was God, and made all things (vv. 1-4). And because the title, Word of God, is applied to the Lord Jesus in Revelation 19:13, it is claimed that these verses in John relate to a pre-existent Christ.

If this were so, however, it would make the Bible appear hopelessly contradictory, for such reference as: "I will be his Father, and He shall be my son," "I will make him My firstborn," "Jesus Christ the son of Abraham the son of David" are at variance with the teaching that represents Jesus as already living.

The Greek term translated "word" is logos. It signifies the outward form of inward thought or reason, or the spoken word as illustrative of thought, wisdom and doctrine.

John is teaching that in the very beginning, God's purpose, wisdom or revelation had been in evidence. It was "with God" in that it emanated from him; it "was God" in that it represented Him to mankind [a similar expression is used by Christ in Matthew 26:28: "This is my blood" -- that is, this represents my blood. Again in Matthew 13:20: "the same is he" signifies the same, "represents he." "That rock was Christ" (1 Cor. 10:4), it represented Christ]; and it became the motive power of all that God did, for all was made with it in mind, and it presented the hope of life to mankind (see John 1: 3-4).

What John is stating, therefore, is that in the very beginning there existed the wisdom or purpose of God, and that it was revealed unto men to provide a way of life.

What did it proclaim?

The coming of one who would overcome sin and give reality to the hope of life. The promise of this was stated from the beginning in the Word or Doctrine of God (e.g. Genesis 3:15).

This Word, Wisdom or Doctrine found its reality, its substance, its confirmation (Romans 15:8) in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ; therefore John taught:

"The word was made (Greek-ginomai "became") flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth" (John 1:14).

The Word was made flesh, or became flesh, as it is expressed in the Greek. The Declaration of Divine wisdom found its substance and reality in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ. Before his advent, it was a mere Word or Promise, but when he became manifested, it became a person.

The person did not exist before the birth of the child Jesus; but the promise and wisdom of God always existed.

That is the teaching of John. It does away with the embarrassment of teaching that an angel became an embryo in the womb of a woman, as demanded by the theory of a pre-existent Jesus.

We acknowledge that "Word" is personalized as "him", in John 1:4, but that is a common Hebraism found throughout the Bible. Riches, Wisdom, Sin, and other subjects are similarly treated. Sometimes these are used to press the doctrine of pre-existence. For example, on several occasions, Jehovah's Witnesses have drawn attention to such passages as Proverbs 8:22, and applied them to their notion of a pre-existent Jesus. The passage reads:

"The Lord possessed me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old."

The subject matter of the chapter is wisdom which is personified; but, unfortunately for the doctrine of the preexistent son, it is personified as a woman: "She standeth, she crieth" etc. (Prov. 8:1-3).


JOHN 1:1
Semantics Count
By Sidney Hatch

What does John 1:1 really say? We were discussing the person Yahshua when someone said, "'In the beginning was the word, and the word was with YHWH and the word was YHWH.' There, that proves that Yahshua was YHWH."

John 1:1 was the Scripture quoted. It is a common assumption that this teaches the deity of Yahshua. Word" in Greek is "logos." It occurs more than 300 times in the New Testament, and simply means a spoken word, a teaching, a report, etc.

John 1:1 says three things about this "logos," or spoken word:

(1) It was in the beginning.
(2) It was with YHWH.
(3) It was YHWH.

What do these remarkable statements mean?

(1) The phrase, "in the beginning," tells us immediately that John speaks of the creation; the events described in Genesis 1:1.

(2) The spoken word of YHWH was the great force in those momentous days.

(3) To say that the word was "with YHWH" tells us that it was the spoken word of YHWH himself, not that of another person.

Here John answers the Gnostic idea that YHWH is too aloof and remote to have done the creating himself, and so did the creating through an agent. This [thoroughly Greek] idea * penetrated Christianity with the teaching that the second person of a triune YHWH did the creating. (Colossians 1:16 does not say that Yahshua created all things. It says that YHWH created all things because of Him and for Him).

To say that the spoken word was YHWH, is a Hebraic way of saying that YHWH's word was mighty and powerful. The Greek word "theos" is the equivalent of the Hebrew "elohim," which means essentially that something is mighty or powerful.

John 1:3 tells us that the world was created by the spoken word: "All things were made by it; and without it was not anything made that was made." This is confirmed in Psalms 33:6-9, which says YHWH spoke, and it was done, He commanded, and the world stood fast.

Finally, the 14th verse of John 1 tells us this "logos" or spoken word was made flesh, a human being, and dwelt among us. It does not say that YHWH became flesh. It says that YHWH created "flesh." a human being, who would be His messenger or spokesman.

The purpose of the entire message in John 1:1-18 is to prove that Yahshua was YHWH's Messenger, the final expression of His purpose and will to the world. He [YHWH] was the spoken word ... Hebrews 1:1-2 sums it all up when it says in times past YHWH spoke in various and fragmentary ways, espcially through the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son."

This person (mentioned above) thinks of John 1:1 as though it reads, "In the beginning was Yahshua, and Yahshua was with YHWH, and Yahshua was YHWH." This is indeed a popular understanding of this verse, and Christian people can ** hardly be blamed , because responsibility rest upon the shoulders of religiuos professionals who teach this. That, however, is not what it says.

An amplified paraphrase of John 1:1 would be as follows: "YHWH's spoken word was in the beginning at creation. It was His word, not the word of another, and it [His spoken word] was mighty and powerful - sufficiently powerful to create all things."


* Voy's note:

"Logos", a Greek word meaning speech , organization, rational order, rational relationship, or rational expression common in Greek philosophical writings" (Encyclopedia. Judaica, article: Logos).

In the "Sixth Letter," sometime attributed to that Greek philosopher, Plato, "the son of the true god is identified as the divine governor and origin of all things present and future" (Ibid).

Does this sound familiar? It certainly does. This is the Christian view of the Nazarene who died on the tree, being son of the Supreme G-d, he (not his Father) is honored as the Creator.

Just as the early Greek and Gentile Christians retained their pagan doctrines of the immorality of the soul, of the Trinity, of the pagan holidays such as Christmas, Ester, Halloween, and Mat Day; they also retained their belief that it was the "son of the Supreme G-d" who did the actual work in creating the universe. Only one step further brought them to the analogy of identifying Yahshua as this Son who created the heavens and the earth.

** Webmaster's Scriptural references:

He also told them this parable: "Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit? (Lukyah 6:39; Mattithyah [Matthew]15:13-14).


[SIZE=5]John 1 Properly Translated by the Late Professor of the Exegesis of Holy Scripture at the University of Oxford[/SIZE]Some people say, "I don't need scholars. I just read my Bible." This statement contains a hidden fallacy. The Bible you read (unless you are reading the Greek and Hebrew) comes to you via a scholar or scholars who have decided to translate it in a certain way. But you may not know that other equally distinguished linguists and scholars offer a very different understanding.Many think that John 1:1, 2, 14 mean "In the beginning was the Word - that is, the Son of God - and the Son was with God and all things were made by him, the Son…and the Son became flesh."
But here is what John really intended according to other scholars and based on John's very Jewish background in the Hebrew Bible:
"In the beginning was the purpose, the purpose in the mind of God, the purpose which was God's own being… this purpose took human form in Jesus of Nazareth" (G.B. Caird, New Testament Theology, Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1995, p. 332).
This translation avoids the appalling complexities of Trinitarianism, which no one can explain. John did not teach that the Son was alive before his birth. What "preexisted" was a Purpose - God's logos, or Purpose - not the Son. The Son first came into being when he was created as the Second Adam in the womb of his mother Mary - by miracle. He is indeed the promised "seed of the woman." The Jewish people believed only in preexisting Purposes, not in preexisting Persons. The capital W on Word in your Bible comes to you because of the decision of a scholar, who expects John to teach that the word was a Person preexisting. There is no such capital letter in the Greek text of John - and no need to think of the word as other than a"word/promise/purpose." Word had occurred 1655 times in the Old Testament and never meant a Person, not once! "As a man thinks, so is he." "As God thinks and plans, so is He." Thus "the word was God and all things came into being through the word."
SOURCE

Also see:

CLICK HERE to download the book The Disciple Whom Jesus Loved
by J. Phillips in PDF Format for FREE or to read it online or click on the following hyper linked text for FREE printable copies of this Bible study or to read it online:
The Disciple Whom Jesus Loved
Take another look - The Bible has the answer
J. Phillips

[PDF] Who Is The Creator?

Who is the Creator?
By John Cordaro[/SIZE]

[PDF] THE “LOGOS” IN JOHN’S PROLOGUE
‘THE LOGOS’ MISAPPLIED

[PDF] John 1 and "The Word"
Anthony Buzzard

[PDF] Understanding John 1:1 Part I

[PDF] Understanding John 1:1 Part II

"The Word of Yahweh"
Yahshua's Name Is Called "The Word of Yahweh"
(Revelation 19:13)

Is Yahshua the Son of God or is He Not?
Part II The Word


In The Beginning Was The Word
The True Meaning Of John 1:1
By Craig Bluemel

Word Became Flesh (Revised)
Sabbath Christian Church

What Paul is REALLY saying in Colossians 1:15-20
Torah Of Messiah

Prologue of John
Truth or Heresy
Oh for crying out loud!!! Jesus Christ is the Word. Not the Father. Rev 19:13 And He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood; and His name is called The Word of God.

Read the entire passage of Rev 19:11-21 which is about Jesus Christ.

In John 1:1,14 the Word is the Second Person of the Trinity who became flesh. The Father did not become flesh. Phil 2:5-9 specifically identifies Jesus Christ as the Person of the Trinity who became flesh.

Here are eleven different commentaries all attesting to the fact that the Word in John 1:1 refers to the Second Person of the Trinity - the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ. --> John 1:1 Bible Commentary

And contrary to what you said elsewhere, Jesus' statement in John 8:58 is indeed an affirmation of His pre-existence.

The Gospel of John emphasizes the deity of Jesus Christ and this statement made by Jesus Christ in John 8:58 is one of the proofs that John uses to affirm that fact.

Regarding John 8:58, 'The Bible Knowledge Commentary, New Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty' p. 306, 307 states...

'Jesus then affirmed His superiority over the prophets and Abraham. Abraham came into being; but when he was born, Jesus was already existing. I AM is a title of Deity (cf. Ex. 3:14; Isa. 41:4; 43:11-13; John 8:28); the Jews' response (v.59) showed they understood it that way. Jesus, because of His equality with God (5:18; 20:28; Phil. 2:6; Col. 2:9), existed from all eternity (John 1:1).'

Here are ten different commentaries all agreeing that Jesus' statement in John 8:58 is His attestation of His eternal pre-existence. --> John 8:58 Bible Commentary
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-27-2012, 10:44 PM
 
Location: Beautiful Niagara Falls ON.
8,993 posts, read 4,903,486 times
Reputation: 7331
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow View Post
Well , we sing a chorus in church that is taken straight from the bible. It's from
Excuse me but my computer did something as I was writing this and so that is why it's incomplete.

Anyway, as I was saying, These are the words of the porphet Isaiah about the Messiah that was to come. Ias.9-6
For unto ua CHILD IS BORN,
to us a son is given,
And the government will be upon his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

There is just no way around this scripture. It's clear as crystal about who Christ is in His incarnation.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-28-2012, 02:36 PM
 
Location: Richmond, Indiana
123 posts, read 74,718 times
Reputation: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by lee9786 View Post
Three distinct "persons" in one God. The Father is not the Son and the Son is not the Father, but the Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father in the Holy Spirit which are ONE.

Attempting to reconcile this with our finite brains is to bring the Creator of the Universe down from Heaven. Claim it by faith. The Scriptures express this complex concept called the Godhead.
I have no need in attempting to reconcile this since, there is no mention in Scripture about "Three distinct "persons" in one God." I rely totally on what is taught in Scripture from where we are to get our doctrine for reproof and correction and instruction in righteousness. So-called "Church doctrine" that attempts to promote a "Triune God", I have no use for.

Last edited by Frank4YAHWEH; 03-28-2012 at 02:45 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-28-2012, 02:44 PM
 
Location: Richmond, Indiana
123 posts, read 74,718 times
Reputation: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Oh for crying out loud!!! Jesus Christ is the Word. Not the Father. Rev 19:13 And He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood; and His name is called The Word of God.

Read the entire passage of Rev 19:11-21 which is about Jesus Christ.

In John 1:1,14 the Word is the Second Person of the Trinity who became flesh. The Father did not become flesh. Phil 2:5-9 specifically identifies Jesus Christ as the Person of the Trinity who became flesh.

Here are eleven different commentaries all attesting to the fact that the Word in John 1:1 refers to the Second Person of the Trinity - the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ. --> John 1:1 Bible Commentary

And contrary to what you said elsewhere, Jesus' statement in John 8:58 is indeed an affirmation of His pre-existence.

The Gospel of John emphasizes the deity of Jesus Christ and this statement made by Jesus Christ in John 8:58 is one of the proofs that John uses to affirm that fact.

Regarding John 8:58, 'The Bible Knowledge Commentary, New Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty' p. 306, 307 states...

'Jesus then affirmed His superiority over the prophets and Abraham. Abraham came into being; but when he was born, Jesus was already existing. I AM is a title of Deity (cf. Ex. 3:14; Isa. 41:4; 43:11-13; John 8:28); the Jews' response (v.59) showed they understood it that way. Jesus, because of His equality with God (5:18; 20:28; Phil. 2:6; Col. 2:9), existed from all eternity (John 1:1).'

Here are ten different commentaries all agreeing that Jesus' statement in John 8:58 is His attestation of His eternal pre-existence. --> John 8:58 Bible Commentary
Nowhere in ANY Scripture translation does it ever say "Jesus Christ is the Word." In translations John 1:1 says "... and the word was "God", not "Jesus". The word translated as "God" is in reference to Father Yahweh, not to His son Yahshua.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-28-2012, 02:54 PM
 
Location: Richmond, Indiana
123 posts, read 74,718 times
Reputation: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by lee9786 View Post
It says the "word was made flesh and dwelt among us". The father wasn't made flesh. The Son was made flesh. The "Word"/Logos is a title for Jesus Christ.

John 1

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2The same was in the beginning with God.

3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The Father was not made flesh. The Son was. The Son is the Word. The Word is a "him". All things were made by Him. All things were made by the Son. It's what it says.

How about

Colossians 1:14-17

King James Version (KJV)

14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.


The Scriptures declare Jesus as the Creator. Let "us" make man in our image. (Genesis)
I never said "the Father was made flesh", but there are many who believe such foolishness as this. I believe that Father Yahweh's word was made flesh THROUGH (BY WAY OF) His son Yahshua. This is why Yahshua said "I am the WAY, ... no man comes unto the Father, but BY (THROUGH) me." Father Yahweh's son is our mediator, intercessor, and advocate with Father Yahweh and the spokesman of His word in this last time period as Hebrews 1:1-2 make perfectly clear. Note that it also clearly makes known in this passage that the prophets of old were the spokesmen of Father Yahweh's word before Yahshua came into existence in this last time period.

Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

Last edited by Frank4YAHWEH; 03-28-2012 at 04:02 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-28-2012, 03:11 PM
 
Location: Richmond, Indiana
123 posts, read 74,718 times
Reputation: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by lee9786;23599785The Father was [U
not made flesh.[/u] The Son was. The Son is the Word. The Word is a "him". All things were made by Him. All things were made by the Son. It's what it says.

How about

Colossians 1:14-17

King James Version (KJV)

14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.


The Scriptures declare Jesus as the Creator. Let "us" make man in our image. (Genesis)
Scripture clearly teaches that it was FATHER Yahweh Who created the heavens and the earth and ALL THINGS IN THEM. Scripture also clearly teaches that Father Yahweh "ALONE", "BY HIMSELF" and that there was "NO ONE BESIDE HIM" in His creating the heavens and the earth and ALL THINGS IN THEM. Not once in the so-called "New Testament" is Yahshua ever recorded as proclaiming that he had created ANYTHING. In fact, he credits his and our FATHER Yahweh for the creation of the heavens and the earth and ALL THINGS IN THEM.

Either it was FATHER Yahweh Who created or it was His SON. It can not be both! I myself side with the OVERWHELMING Scripture verses and passages that declare that Father Yahweh is our Creator.

As for your pointing out the "us" and "our" in Genesis, there is no mention of FATHER Yahweh's SON Yahshua being included in this, so what you have proposed is only an ASSUMPTION.

LET US MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE
Genesis 1:26,27
By Voy Wilks
8/31/98

"Then Elohim said, 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness'" (Gen. 1:26, RSV).

Monotheism means one. Any person who believes in the Trinity or the Duality cannot properly claim to believe in Monotheism. The reason being, Trinity means three, Duality means two, while Monotheism means one - One theos, or One Elohim, not two, three, or a dozen. Of course,, Trinitarians and Dualists will heartily disagree, but this is fact. This is Truth. Monotheism means ONE. Perhaps a better term is Mono-el-ism; ONE EL.

Let Us

Because the words us and our appear in Genesis 1:26, "Let us make man in our images and our likeness, Trinitarians say, "Ah ha! This proves the Trinity." But surprise: Dualist say, "Ah ha! This proves the Duality of Yahweh." Isn't this amazing? It seems we have a choice. Based on these two little words, we can believe in the Trinity, or we can believe in Duality, all the while referring to these as Monotheism. Amazing!

After this astonishing revelation, let us now look at Genesis 1:27:

"So Elohim created man in HIS own image, in the image of Elohim HE created him; male and female HE created them."

Comparison

Genesis 1:26 contains three plural pronouns. Genesis 1:27 contains three singular pronouns. All refer to the same person - the Creator. If Trinitarians and Dualists can ignore verse 27 with its singular pronouns, perhaps I should have the privilege of ignoring verse 26 with its plural pronouns. I speak lightly, of course, to encourage thought and study. My preference is, none of us should ignore Biblical Scripture as originally given.

Image and Likeness

Have you noticed? Image and likeness are not plural words, but singular; in Hebrew as well as English. Dr. Bullinger pointed this out, even though he was a Trinitarian. Elohim made man in the image of Elohim, not images of Elohim. This indicates the image (singular) of one person, not two or three persons. The same is true of likeness. The word is singular.

A Translator's Footnote (Gen. 1:26)

RSV Harper Study Bible, notes by Harold Lindsell.
"Let us make man. Many interpret us to mean the Trinity, ... but probably early readers understood the word as the plural of majesty, just as the plural Elohim (Hebrew) is used of God to denote his majesty and attributes. Another possible interpretation is the picture of God consulting with his angelic court, the host of heaven (1 Kings 22:19), or the sons of God (Job 1:6)." (Emphasis added).

It is interesting to note that Harold Lindsell believed in the Trinity, indicated by his note on Mt. 28:19, nevertheless he realized Gen. 1:26 does not promote the Trinity. He spoke of "early readers" who understood the word as the plural of majesty. "Early readers" would be the Saints of antiquity and the disciples of the first century C.E. who had no knowledge of Duality or Trinity (See The Christian Doctrine of God, Vol. 1, by the noted Theologian, Emil Brunner, pages 205-237; published by Westminister Press, Philadelphia, 1946).

The Reference: 1st Kings 22:19

When we consult the reference given by Mr. Lindsell (2 Kings 22:19), we see that his point is certainly worth considering:

"And Micaiah said, 'Therefore hear the word of Yahweh: I saw Yahweh sitting on his throne, and all of the host of heaven standing beside him on his right hand and on his left; and Yahweh said,

"'Who will entice Ahab that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-Gilead?' And one said one thing and another said another. Then a spirit came forward and stood before Yahweh, saying, 'I will entice him.' And Yahweh said to him, 'By what means?'

"'I will go forth and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all of his prophets.' And he said, 'You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go forth and do so.'

"Now therefore behold, Yahweh has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; Yahweh has spoken evil concerning you" (1 Kings 22:19-22, RSV).

We see that Yahweh consulted with his celestial court on this occasion. He may have done the same in the beginning (Gen. 1:26). His celestial court consisted of the following:

(1) Yahweh
(2) The angels. Note Yahshua was never an angel (Heb. 1:5,13).
(3) The living creatures (the living beasts); that is, the Cherubim.
(4) No one else was present, apparently.

Footnote, Genesis 1:26

New English Bible
"The plural us (Gen. 3:22; 11:7) may be a majestic plural, or else refer to minor divine beings thought to surround God, like the courtiers of a human king (1 Kings 22:19-22)."

Only One Yahweh & Only One True El

Since there is only one Yahweh and only one true El (Deut. 6:4; Neh. 9:6; John 17:3), this confirms Yahshua was not present in the beginning (1) as the Creator, or (2) as a second Yahweh (Gen. 1:26); nor was he present in the days of Ahab (1 Kings 22:19).

"To you it was shown, that you might know that Yahweh is Elohim; there is no other besides HIM. ... know therefore this day, and lay it to your heart, that Yahweh is Elohim in heaven above and on earth beneath; there is no other" (Deut. 4:35,39, RSV).

Deut. 6:4

Hear, O Israel: Yahweh our Elohim is ONE Yahweh, ..." (Deut. 6:4).

One is translated from the Hebrew word echad, equal in every respect to the English word, one. Echad is a cardinal number, meaning one as in one, two, three, etc. A cardinal number establishes how many, whereas an ordinal number establishes a place in a sequence, such as first, second, third, etc. Yahweh is not first among several. Instead, he is the ONE true El; the ONLY Yahweh who exist (2 Sam. 22:32; Ps. 83:18; Isa. 43:10; 44:6; 45:5,6,21,22; Mark 12:28-32; Luke 18:19; Rev. 15:4).

There are more than sixty Scriptures which declare there is one Yahweh; one true Elohim so, is it rational to ignore 60 Scriptures in preference to three little words in Genesis 1:26?

Conclusion

Since there are more than sixty Scriptures which declare there is one Yahweh, the evidence indicates we must accept the three plural pronouns in Genesis 1:26 as Mr. Lindsell suggested:

(1) As the plural of majesty, not as a plurality of persons; a plurality of Deities, or

(2) Accept the view that the only Yahweh who exists consulted with his Angelic Court, as illustrated in 2 Kings 22:19.

Scriptures do not support the doctrine of the Trinity, neither do they support the doctrine of Duality of Deities. Scriptures teach Monotheism; One Yahweh - One true El.

"You believe that Yahweh is one; you do well; the demons believe also, and tremble" (James 2:19).

"TELL US"
Isaiah 41:21-26
By Voy Wilks
3/26/99

Throughout the Scriptures most references to Yahweh use singular pronouns; I, me, my, mine, he, him, his, etc. Why is this? The answer is, Yahweh truly is ONE, so naturally, singular pronouns are associated with Yahweh, the El, of Israel.

"Hear, O Israel: Yahweh our Elohim is one Yahweh: ... (Deut. 6:4, KJV).

"Ye [Israel, Verse 1] are my witnesses, saith Yahweh, and my servant whom I have chosen, that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no El formed, neither shall there be ANY AFTER ME. I, even I am Yahweh; and beside me there is no savior" (Isa. 43:10,11).

In a few references, however, Scriptures do use plural pronouns, even when the One Yahweh is spoken of. There is an explanation for each, as in the following quotation:

"Produce your cause, saith Yahweh; bring forth your strong reasons, saith the king of Jacob. Let them bring them forth, and show US what shall happen: let them show the former things, what they be, that WE may consider them, or declare to US things for to come. Show the things that are to come hereafter that WE may know that ye are gods: ye, do good, or do evil, that WE may be dismayed and behold it together. ...

"Behold, ye are of nothing, and your work is nought: an abomination is he that chooseth you. I have raised up one from the north, and he shall come: from the rising of the sun shall he call upon my name: and he shall come upon princes as upon mortar, and as the potter treadeth clay. Who hath declared from the beginning, that WE may know? And before time, that WE may say, He is righteous? there is none that declareth, yea, there is none that heareth your words" (Isa. 41:21-26, KJV).

In these verses, us and we are used several times in connection with the one Yahweh. Why is this?

o Some might claim these verses support the doctrine of the Trinity. But no. The Trinity is a false doctrine. It is not true. As noted above, there is only ONE El. "Before me, no El was formed, neither shall there be [any] after me" (Isa. 43:10).

o Some might claim these verses support the doctrine of the Twinity (the Duality); two Els, two Yahwehs. But no. We have just found that Yahweh is one Yahweh. THERE IS NO OTHER (Deut. 6:4). "Before me, no El was formed nor shall there be any after me" (Isa. 43:10, RSV).

What, then, can we say about these plural pronouns in reference to Yahweh? Long ago, wise men reported we shuld notice the context; note the general message before, in, and after the verse being studied, Therefore, let us do so at this time. Go back to verse one of Isaiah 41.

"Keep silence before me, O islands; and let the people renew their strength: let them come near; let them speak: let US come near together to judgment" (Isa. 41:1).

We see that Yahweh calls to the people of the Coast Lands. "Let us meet together." Both Yahweh and the peoples of the Coast Lands.

In the verses which follow, Yahweh reveals to his listeners some of his majestic deeds. Idolaters, on the other hand, encourage each other in the creation of and worship to their idols (Isa. 41:5-7).

Now note: The Most High brings Israel into the picture, and reassures his chosen people of his continuing love. "You are my servant. Have no fear. I will help you" (Isa. 41:8-20).

So we now have THREE PARTIES: (1) Yahweh, (2) Israel, and (3) those who worship idols. Yahweh and Israel stand together. And what happens?

Set forth your case (you idolaters). Give proof of your power. Your great deeds. Tell US: (Us = Yahweh, Israel, and the gathered idolaters). Tell us what is to happen. Declare to us who are assembled here the things which will come to pass hereafter, so we will know you are gods. Yahweh's summation is,

"Behold, they (the idols) are all a delusion; their works are nothing; their molten images are empty wind" (Isa. 41:29, RSV).

Helpful Quotations From Other Versions

o "Present your case, ..." (Isa. 41:21, Berkeley Version). Footnote: "In verses 1-4 worshipers of idols are addressed; in verses 21-24 the idols are challenged."

o "Listen ... come now and speak, ... The court is ready for your case" (Isa. 41:1, TLB).

o "Elohim says, be silent and listen to me, you distant lands. Get ready to present your case in court: you will have your chance to speak" (Isa. 41:1, Good News Bible); and verse 21: "Yahweh the king of Israel has this to say, you gods of the nations, present your case. Bring the best arguments you have. ... Explain to the court the things of the past, ..."

Conclusion

It is significant that none of these versions refer to Isa. 41 as a support for the Trinity. This is true of reference books, also, which were consulted. They were to honest to claim this verse supports the Trinity or the Duality.

In reviewing Isaiah chapter 41, we see clearly, in the use of us and we, there is no allusion to a Trinity or a Duality of Deities. Instead, symbolically at least, Yahweh challenged the peoples of distant lands to meet with him and his people Israel for a face to face encounter; a court session:

"Let US decide for once and for all time about these idols: Do they have power to do good, to do evil, or to predict the future? No. They are as empty wind" (paraphrase).

Yahweh, the one, true El has this power. He can predict, then make it come to pass. He can also bring salvation. Idols can do nothing.
SOURCE

Also see:

Elohim - Singular Or Plural?
“Let us” in Genesis 1:26 is NOT the Trinity
The Bible Answer Stand Ministry

Genesis 1:26 and the Hebrew Noun 'Elohim'
Is it really “uni-plural”?

Does the phrase, "Let us make man in our image," indicate plurality of persons involved in creation?
By Robert A. Sabin

[PDF] Let US Make Man, in OUR Image

What is the meaning of God said: "Let us make man in our image ..."?
Jews for Judaism

Let us Create in Genesis 1:26-27 doesn't prove trinity
Answering Christianity
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-28-2012, 03:31 PM
 
Location: Richmond, Indiana
123 posts, read 74,718 times
Reputation: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by lee9786 View Post

How about

Colossians 1:14-17

King James Version (KJV)

14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
As for you asking ...

"How about

Colossians 1:14-17" ...

This and other similar verses and passages AS TRANSLATED seem to imply that Yahshua created. Following is an excerpt from one of my web pages on this subject:

By Whom He Made The Worlds

"Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things,
BY WHOM also he made the worlds; ..." (Heb. 1:2 KJV). The RSV reads, "... through whom he created the world."

This very clearly states the world was created By the Son of Yahweh. This Son is Yahshua, of course. However, Scriptural evidence noted above indicates Yahweh did the creating, not Yahshua. Are we to believe the apostles and the Gospel writers wrote two ways, sometimes reporting that Yahweh is Creator, and at other times reporting that his Son is Creator? Indeed no.

More than 100 Scriptures state clearly that Yahweh is Creator and Maker of heaven and earth (Ex. 20:11). Some of these indicate that no other deity exist (Isa. 44:6). No other deity helped him in his creating acts (Neh. 9:6). Except for the angels, he was alone in the creation (Isa. 45:5-18). These are stated clearly - as clearly as Hebrews 1:2 states that Yahshua made the world."

What shall we do? Do we cancel (erase, throw out) more than 100 Scriptures so that we can accept Hebrews 1:2 instead? Since this Scripture does not in most English versions agree with the 100, we should carefully examine Hebrews 1:2 and, hopefully, discover why it does not agree. The Word "By"

Yahweh created the world "by" (through) the Son (Heb. 1:2 KJV). The Diaglott says Yahweh created the world "on account of" the Son. Any one of the three ("by," "through," or "on account of") is, technically, a correct translation of the Greek word Di' or Dia. Dia is in the KJV translated several ways, but usually is translated as follows:

By - 243 times; through - 100 times; for - 106 times; because - 24 times; because of - 29 times; for the sake of - 32 times; etc.

The King's Men did not translate the WORD di' incorrectly in Heb. 1:2. By or through is a correct translation of the WORD, but ONLY IF THE MESSAGE in the sentence agrees, or allows it. But alas, in this case the message of the sentence will not allow this translation.

Reason #1. Heb 1:2a reveals Yahshua to be the heir of what was created.

Reason #2. More than 100 Scriptures show it was Yahweh (not Yahshua) who created the heavens and the earth. Heb. 1:2 must agree with the 100 other Scriptures. For a list of these [ask for] our paper, "Who Is the Creator?"

For these reasons, the sentence in Heb. 1:2b must have
originally read like the Diaglott reads today, Yahweh "... in the last of these days spoke to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, ON ACCOUNT OF whom also he constituted the ages; ..."

Another acceptable translation would be, "... a Son, FOR whom he created the world."

Many times the King James Version as well as more modern versions translate dia as "for," "because of," "therefore" (meaning "for this reason"). For a more detailed layout of the word di' (dia), [see] for our [study], "Hebrews 1:2 - Berry."

This is not to say the the King's Men purposely mistranslated, nor is this to say they were dishonest. Not at all. On the contrary, they no doubt delivered what they believed to be the correct translation of Heb. 1:2. We must realize, however, that all of the King's Men believed the doctrine of the Trinity (one is three, and three are one). Believing this, they saw no contradiction between this Scripture (as they translated it) and the 100 Scriptures which show that Yahweh the Father is truly and personally the Creator of the heaven and earth.

There are at least two other Scriptures in which di' should have been translated for, or on account of. These are Col. 1:16-17 and John 1:10. Let us review these Scriptures, then return to our study in the book of Hebrews.

Colossians 1:16,17

"For by him [*Yahshua] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, ... all things were created by him and for him" (Col. 1:16,17 KJV).

* Webmasters note: I believe that this also could be in reference to Father Yahweh and not to His son Yahshua. The same I believe can also apply in Yahchanan [John] 1:3.

Just as in Heb. 1:2, di' can be translated for, and on account of, as well as by or through. As indicated above, either way is technically correct for this WORD. However, the MESSAGE in this text must decide which is the proper translation. The same is true of the Greek word en (= the English in).

Since Yahweh is the Creator (Heb. 3:4; Ex. 20:11; Mt. 21:33; Mk. 12:7; Lk. 20:14), and Yahshua is the heir, then Col. 1:16,17 SHOULD TELL THE SAME STORY. Dozens of Scriptures in both Testaments tell us plainly that Yahweh is the Creator, and there is no other El but but him. He alone is the only true El, Eloah, Elohim, and Creator.

Yahshua and the New Testament writers proved everything by Old Testament Scriptures, therefore New Testament Scriptures should (and originally did) agree with Old Testament Scriptures. The New Testament Scriptures are based on the older ones. This being true, it seems that a more exact reading of Col. 1:16,17, and one which is agreeable to the Greek text, is as follows:

"For in [en = in, to, unto, as well as by] him were all things created, that are in [en] heaven, and that are on earth, ... all things were created on account of [di'] him and for him."

John 1:10

"He [the Light, Yahshua] was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not" (KJV).

As we have discovered above, to agree with other Scriptures, and with the context of the message, a more acceptable reading is as follows:

"He was in the world and the world was made for {di'} [on account of, because of] him, and the world knew him not."
SOURCE



As for Ephesians 3:9, I also will submit to you the following that I have entered on my Xanga blog:

EPHESIANS 3:9
THREE ADDED WORDS
By Voy Wilks
11/5/96

"And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things <<by Jesus Christ>>" (Eph 3:9, KJV).

Agreeing with this message are the following versions:

New King James Version
Holy Name Bible Amplified Version
William Tyndale Version
The Koster Version
The N.T. In Hebrew & English
Know Version Young's Literal Translation
The Geneva Bible (1602)
King James Version (1611-1996)

Bullinger's notes in the Companion Bible indicate the words "by Jesus Christ" are not in the Greek text. When we consult the NIV Interlinear Greek/English New Testament, we find the words "by Jesus Christ" are not in the text. The same is true of the Emphatic Diaglott and The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures.

That these three words <<by Jesus Christ>> have been added to the text is evident, because this message disagrees with many Old Testament Scriptures. Yahweh is the Creator, not Yahshua the Messiah. Here are just three from more than 100 Scriptures which reveal that Yahweh is the Creator:

"My help comes from Yahweh, who made heaven and earth" (Ps. 121:1).

"By the word of Yahweh the heavens were made, and their hosts by the BREATH of his MOUTH. He gathered the waters of the sea as in a bottle; he put the deeps in storehouses. Let all the earth fear Yahweh, let all the inhabitants of the earth stand in awe of him! For he SPOKE, and it came to be; he COMMANDED, and it stood forth" (Ps. 33:6-9, RSV).

"Thus says Yahweh, your Redeemer, he who formed you from the womb: "I am Yahweh, the Maker of all things, I ALONE stretched out the heavens, and founded the earth BY MYSELF" (Isa. 44:24 (http://www.bible.cc/isaiah/44:24.htm - broken link), Berkeley Version).

It is evident then, that the message (in Eph. 3:9 in the versions noted above) in incorrect. Yahweh alone created the heavens and the earth and all things in them. No one was with him. No one helped him (Isa. 40:12-14; 44:6; 44:24; 45:4,6,12; 48:12,13 (http://www.bible.cc/isiah/48-12.htm - broken link); Mal. 2:10). The same Apostle Paul who wrote Ephesians 3:9 wrote as follows:

"For who has known the mind of Yahweh, or who has been his councilor?" (Rom. 11:34 (http://www.bible/cc/romans/11-34.htm - broken link)).

The implication is: No one was with him. No one helped him. This is exactly the message we have found in the writings of the ancient prophets.

Below is a list of version which do not contain the added words: that is, the false message that Yahweh created all things <<by Jesus Christ>>." The New Century Version states the message as clear as any, perhaps:

"And Yahweh gave me the work of telling all people about the plan of his secret, which has been hidden in him since the beginning of time. He is the One who created everything" (Eph. 3:9, New Century Version; Emphasis added).

Version Which Agree

American Revised Version
Beck Version
Twentieth Century N.T.
Emphasized Version
James Duncan Version (1836)
Revised Standard Version
The Bethel Bible
American Standard Version
Moffatt Translation
Bible In Basic English
New American Bible
Kingdom Interlinear Greek/English N.T.
Douay-Rheims Version
The Living Bible
The Bekelely Version
The New English Bible
The Fenton Version
The Estes Version
The Concordant Version
The Charles B. Williams Version
New Century Version
New International Version
Coneybeare Version
Phillips Version
Lamsa Version
NIV Interlinear Greek/English
Weymouth Version
New American Standard Version
Wuest Version
Good News Bible
The Jewish N.T.
Emphatic Diaglott (1863)
Cassirer Version of the N.T.
The New World Translation
The Jerusalem Bible
The Norlie Version
The John Wycliffe Version (1385)
The Barclay Version
The Charles K. Williams Version
SOURCE

Last edited by Frank4YAHWEH; 03-28-2012 at 03:40 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-28-2012, 03:47 PM
 
Location: Richmond, Indiana
123 posts, read 74,718 times
Reputation: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow View Post
Excuse me but my computer did something as I was writing this and so that is why it's incomplete.

Anyway, as I was saying, These are the words of the porphet Isaiah about the Messiah that was to come. Ias.9-6
For unto ua CHILD IS BORN,
to us a son is given,
And the government will be upon his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

There is just no way around this scripture. It's clear as crystal about who Christ is in His incarnation.
I have information on Isayah 9:6 on my Xanga blog as is as follows:

Does Isayah 9:6 Proclaim Yahshua To Be Yahweh?

Does Isaiah 9:6 Claim That "Jesus is God"?

JPS version, done in 1917. The Holy Scriptures According to the Masoretic Text: A New Translation. Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society of America reads as follows:

"For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor (See END NOTE) -Abi-ad-sar-shalom."

The 1985, and the revised e-edition of 1997, render Is. 9:5b as:

"... he has been named "The Mighty God is planning grace (d);
The Eternal Father, a peaceable ruler."

(d) = as in 25:1

Many question why the the JPS 1917 transliterate this portion of the passage as opposed to translating it. The reason is quite obvious. Christian translations have traditionally understood this prophecy to refer to "Jesus", and then used this quite complicated name as a series of messianic titles. The JPS wanted to avoid
this, and to emphasize that this is a (real or symbolic) personal name. Just
like "Jonathan" is not translated "Yahweh-has-given" in the A.K.J.V. of the Bible. The A.K.J.V. does not translate "Immanuel" in 7:14 and etc. as "God-is-with-us".

For not having a better explanation of this passage, I have on a number of occasions in the past explained that the A.K.J.V. reads "... his name shall be CALLED ...", not that his name IS all of these names. This passage is worded in a future tense. Understanding this passage as a future prophecy concerning Yahshua, would this not stand true? Is he not given all of these attributive names/titles at this time? None of these are his GIVEN name (singular) though. There was only one name ("... for there is NONE OTHER NAME under heaven GIVEN among men ..." Acts 4:12) GIVEN to him at birth.

A messenger ("malak, angel") of Yahweh conveyed to Yahseph [Joseph] that he was to call his name Yahshua and he did as the messenger of Yahweh had told him.

"And [Yahseph] knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name YAHSHUA. (Matthew 1:25)

The name Yahshua was GIVEN to him by Father Yahweh which was conveyed through His messenger.

"Wherefore Yahweh also has highly exalted him, and GIVEN him a name which is above every name: ..." (Philippians 2:9)

Father Yahweh Is Our Supreme Redeemer

The Name YAHshua means 'YAHweh Is Redeemer'. Yahshua came in the Name of our Heavenly Father and Creator (Yahchanan [John] 5:43). Father Yahweh is our Supreme Redeemer THROUGH his son Yahshua. Yahshua said "No man comes unto the Father, but by me." (Yahchanan [John] 14:6). Yahshua is our advocate with Father Yahweh (1 John 2:1). He is our mediator with Father Yahweh (I Timothy 2:5).

END NOTE

The Hebrew for "mighty god" in Isaiah 6:9 is gibbor el, which is nearly the same Hebrew as the name of the angel Gabriel.

The Net Bible has this interesting note on the title gibbor el ("mighty God"):

"probably an attributive adjective ("mighty God"), though one might translate "God is a warrior" or "God is mighty." Since this title is apparently used later (10:21, but cf. Hos. 3:5) for God, some have understood it as pointing to the king's deity. Others argue that the title portrays the king as God's representative on the battlefield, whom God empowers in a supernatural way (see Hayes and Irvine, Isaiah, 181-82). The latter sense seems more likely in the original context of the prophecy. Having read the NT, we might in retrospect interpret this title as indicating the coming king's deity, but it is unlikely that Isaiah or his audience would have understood the title in such a bold way. Ps 45:6 addresses the Davidic king as "God" because he ruled and fought as God's representative on earth. Ancient Near Eastern art and literature picture gods training kings for battle, bestowing special weapons, and intervening in battle. According to Egyptian propaganda, the Hittites described Ramses II as follows: "No man is he who is among us, It is Seth great-of-strength, Baal in person; Not deeds of man are these his doings, They are of one who is unique." (See M. Lichtheim, Ancient Egyptian Literature, 2:67) Isa. 9:6 probably envisions a similar kind of response when friends and foes alike look at the Davidic king in full battle regalia. When the king's enemies oppose him on the battlefield, they are, as it were, fighting against God himself."

Notice that the NetBible scholars are Trinitarians, yet they are realistic and fair minded enough to recognize that gibbor el is not a title of deity. Other scholars agree.

Actually, the passage is not a particularly good one for Trinitarians. It would help the Oneness folks a lot more. The Trinitarian does not regard Jesus as the Father, yet the passage says he shall be called "everlasting father." The Trinitarian has to do all sorts of twisting to insist that "gibbor el" should be taken as telling us that Jesus is God, but then the next phrase they have to explain away to tell us that he is not the Father.

The following article was obtained from the Assembly of Yahweh (7th Day):

THE MIGHTY EL - THE EVERLASTING FATHER
Isaiah 9:6


"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulders: and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, The Mighty God, The Ever lasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (KJV).

It seems that the Name which was to be given to Yahshua, the Son of Yahweh the Father, is a descriptive Name or Title which honors Yahweh. The Messiah came "in his Father's Name" (John 5:43). Below are quotations from several versions of the Bible which help to make clear the meaning of Isa. 9:6.
(Some versions number it as verse 5).

The Complete Bible, By Smith and Goodspeed.
"For a child is born to us; and the government will be upon his shoulders; and his name will be called 'Wonderful counselor is God almighty, Father forever, Prince of peace.'"

Knox Version

"For our sakes a child is born, to our race a son is given, whose shoulder will bear the septre of princely power. What name shall be given him? Peerless among counsellors, the mighty God, Father of the world to come, the Prince of peace."

The Emphasised Bible
"... And his Name hath been called Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, * Father of Futurity **, Prince of Prosperity."

* Footnote by the translator: "el gibbor, as in chapter 10:21".

** "Father of Progress".

The Holy Scriptures, by The Jewish Publication Society of America, Philadelpheia; 1917, 1945, 1955.
"... And his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi--ad-sar--slalom." ***

***
Footnote by the translator: "That is, Wonderful in counsel is God the Mighty, the everlasting Father, the Ruler of Peace."

Holy Bible - Catholic Layman's Edition, Catholic Press Inc., Chicago; 1964.
"... and his name shall be called, Wonderful Counselor, God the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace."

Douay-Rheims Version
"... and his name shall be called, Wonderful Counsellor God the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace."

The Leeser Version"His name shall be called, Wonderful Counselor of the mighty El, of the everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace, ..."This Son was to be given names (or titles) which describe, honor and extol the heavenly Father in his exulted position. It is not that every one of these names describe the person and attributes of the Son to be born. Take the name Eliyah. The meaning is, "Yah is El." This does not mean that Eliyah was El. Instead, Eliyah describes and reveals who Yahweh is; Yahweh is El. Many other names could be cited. So it is with Isa. 9:6. These names describe the grandeur and glory which the heavenly Father is entitled to receive.The following was excerpted from: Seek What Is Truth – Is Yahshua the Son of God or Is He Not? - Part V
Isaiah 9:6: “His Name Shall be Called”

Isa.9:6 reads, “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.”

Take a long hard look at Isa 9:6. Can you find anywhere in the entire Bible where the Son is called “Wonderful?” Can you find anywhere in the entire Bible where the Son is called “Counselor?” Can you find anywhere in the entire Bible where the Son is called “The mighty God?” Can you find anywhere in the entire Bible where the Son is called “The everlasting Father?” Can you find anywhere in the entire Bible where the Son is called “The Prince of Peace?” Not a one! Why is He never called the names Isaiah said He would be called? Take another long hard look and you will see the word NAME, not names. It is a single name! Oneness, many times have pointed this out to Trinitarians when discussing Mt 28:19, so they should be well aware of the difference.
These five descriptive titles are not really five different names, but are instead, one long, multiple name. Here are a few versions of the Old Testament that recognize this.

The Complete Bible, by Smith and Goodspeed.
“And his name will be called ‘Wonderful counselor is God almighty, Father forever, Prince of peace."

The Holy Scriptures, by The Jewish Publication Society of America.
“And his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom.” Footnote by the translators: “That is, Wonderful in counsel is God the Mighty, the everlasting Father, the Ruler of Peace.”

The Leeser Version
“His name is called, Wonderful, counselor of the mighty El, of the everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace.”
It seems that this name that was given to Yahshua the Son is a descriptive name or title which honors Yahweh His Father. Not unusual since Yahshua, the Son’s name, also honors the Father, meaning Yahweh is salvation. Notice the Jewish Version above, by means of hyphens, fastens them all together into one name or title, which the Messiah is to wear. The attributes that are revealed in this title are ascribed to the Father because, as we’ve said many times, Yahweh accomplishes everything by and through His Son.
SOURCE

Other Links To Consider:

Isaiah 9:6 Explained
The Mighty God & Eternal Father
By Craig Bluemel

[PDF] Is Jesus “the Mighty God” in Isaiah 9.6?
by Servetus the Evangelical

YshaYaH (Isaiah) 9:6

Isaiah 9:6 (http://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/trinity/verses/Is9_6.html - broken link) The Trinity On Trial

Isaiah 9:6 The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father - A Restoration Light Publication

Isaiah 9:6 (No. 224) - Christian Churches of God

Why does Isaiah 9:6 call Jesus “Mighty God, Everlasting Father”?

Isaiah 9 Not Jesus, but Hezekiah

Trinitarian Verses (part 1 of 4): “A Child Will Be Born To Us…Eternal Father, Prince of Peace”

In Isaiah 9:6 and the Old Testament
Answering Christianity

Last edited by Frank4YAHWEH; 03-28-2012 at 04:16 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-28-2012, 04:14 PM
 
12,890 posts, read 6,961,358 times
Reputation: 2388
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank4YAHWEH View Post
Nowhere in ANY Scripture translation does it ever say "Jesus Christ is the Word." In translations John 1:1 says "... and the word was "God", not "Jesus". The word translated as "God" is in reference to Father Yahweh, not to His son Yahshua.
You are seriously confused.

I don't know of any theologian worth his salt who would deny that John 1:1 is a reference to the pre-incarnate Christ.

Anyone with any common sense should be able to understand that the Word spoken of in John 1:1 and who became flesh in John 1:14 is Jesus Christ. In John 1:14 He is called 'the only begotten from the Father.' In John 3:16 He is called the only begotten Son.


And I just got through telling you that Revelation 19:11-21 refers to Jesus Christ and He is there identified as the Word of God.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $84,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2014, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 - Top