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I did answer it. I answered it by saying they were not saved. Even the demons 'believed', but obviously they did not trust Christ as their lord and saviour. Mere belief in existence of God won't save you any more than mere works can save you. The people behind the door WORKED, yet were left out. Why? Because they were never saved. Works are an automatic concequence of salvation, - fruits of the spirit, just like James said. Saved people work because they are saved and want to serve, not because they want to earn salvation. But works without salvation are meaningless.
It is not that "SAVING BELIEF must be accompianied by GOOD works", but rather "SAVING BELIEF simply is accompianied by GOOD works". Faith manifests itself in works.
It's surprising to me that this is such a difficult point to get across. The command to repent and believe are "obeyed" through the hearing of the gospel, faithfully preached. And I believe that God works through that preaching and that hearing to draw the individual to Christ. Even though this is seen as a response on our part, I still believe that it is God at work.
Baptism is something that is done "after the fact". It confuses me a bit that there could be so much opposition to the idea of "faith, alone". I know the terminology may bother some people; but the idea is that of simply believeing on Christ for salvation, trusting that He is the only way.
We trust that His atoning work is actually what saves a sinner, and that I contribute nothing. I look at the few references to baptism in connection with salvation, and I find myself believeing that it could not be water baptism that is in view. We are washed, yes, but not by regular water. If it were, it would have to be a work that we do to help save ourselves. And we know that that is not possible.
I believe you may have cited John 6:28,29:
28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
You once said we are not saved by works, but for works. I believe the Ephesians 2 passage bears this out.
I did answer it. I answered it by saying they were not saved. Even the demons 'believed', but obviously they did not trust Christ as their lord and saviour. Mere belief in existence of God won't save you any more than mere works can save you. The people behind the door WORKED, yet were left out. Why? Because they were never saved. Works are an automatic concequence of salvation, - fruits of the spirit, just like James said. Saved people work because they are saved and want to serve, not because they want to earn salvation. But works without salvation are meaningless.
It is not that "SAVING BELIEF must be accompianied by GOOD works", but rather "SAVING BELIEF simply is accompianied by GOOD works". Faith manifests itself in works.
How can you say they didn't trust Christ as their savior? Did they not believe they were doing all that was supposed to be His will?
After all look at their response:
"...have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? "
They obviously believed they should be saved. A non believer would not believe such. Isn't it irrational to believe that they didn't believe they would/should be saved?
The passage in Mark 16:9-20 is questionable at best, but even so it still defends salvation by faith alone. This is proved by the fact that the negative, being condemned, is because of lack of faith, not believing. What's the condemnation again, lack of faith in the Son of God, not not being baptized. So the question is, what is the point of baptism in the above verse, simply this, obedient Christians follow in baptism to show they are disciples of Christ. This would get a Jew disowned by his family at best, or killed for blasphemy. Nowhere else is there any fleshly work associated with salvation.
Blessings
I am sorry to put off my response till tomorrow morning... Barely keep my eyes open, but I'll give this response my best efforts soon. Stay with me...
Finn_Jarber;21354711]It is dishonest to claim no examples have been provided.
If any example has been provided, then cite the post. Of course, I can already predict what your response will be. You will tell me to go back through the thread and find it. It's just another one of your games. You don't have an example because there isn't one in the entire Bible.
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So you say, but you also say that EVERYTHING, even thinking, is counted as works. You also claim that Cain had faith AND works, but that too was dead faith.
Everything man does is a work whether it be thought or deed. Keep in mind that lust is a thought, and it is also a sin. You seem to be focusing on thinking, not me. I gave you the example of the thief who confessed Jesus is Lord. His words tell us he repented. These are works ordained of God. The sinful woman in Luke 8 did works when she SHOWED her love to Jesus. Love is a work ordained by God.
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That is what I have been saying all along. It RESULTS in works, but you claim that salvation is RESULT of works. Now you have flip flopped in yout view
Genuine faith always results in works. James says we are justified by faith and works. It is impossible to have a faith that is pleasing to God that doesn't manifest itself (works) in some way. I haven't changed my thinking one bit.
Here is yet another example. Will you deny that works justified in this story as well?
Luke 18
9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”
The publican prayed. He humbled himself before God. He beat his breast. He asked God for mercy. He admitted he was a sinner. These are things the publican DID. The publican demonstrated his faith by what he DID (works).
The publican was saved by a faith that works, not simply because he believed in his heart. He SHOWED it outwardly. This is the kind of faith that pleases God. It is faith working through love.
Humbling oneself is an action. It is a work.
The Pharisee had faith and works, but his works were not pleasing to God. The Publican had faith and works; his works were pleasing to God.
How can you say they didn't trust Christ as their savior? Did they not believe they were doing all that was supposed to be His will?
After all look at their response:
"...have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? "
They obviously believed they should be saved. A non believer would not believe such. Isn't it irrational to believe that they didn't believe they would/should be saved?
This throws out OSAS as well.
Obviously, these were believers. They had faith, but their works were not authorized by God. This is exactly like Cain. He had faith. He believed in God. He had daily conversations with Him. He worshipped God. He made offerings to God. The difference between Cain and Abel was that Abel obeyed, and Cain did not. Cain's works were devised by Cain. Abel's works were ordained of God.
Works of the Law do not save. Works of men do not save. Works ordained of God do save.
Once again, this proves that there are different kinds of works in the Bible. "Apart from works" does not include the works ordained by God.
Obviously, these were believers. They had faith, but their works were not authorized by God. This is exactly like Cain. He had faith. He believed in God. He had daily conversations with Him. He worshipped God. He made offerings to God. The difference between Cain and Abel was that Abel obeyed, and Cain did not. Cain's works were devised by Cain. Abel's works were ordained of God.
Works of the Law do not save. Works of men do not save. Works ordained of God do save.
Once again, this proves that there are different kinds of works in the Bible. "Apart from works" does not include the works ordained by God.
JAA2310;21357833] It confuses me a bit that there could be so much opposition to the idea of "faith, alone". I know the terminology may bother some people; but the idea is that of simply believeing on Christ for salvation, trusting that He is the only way.
I have three questions for you JAA. Can you please answer them?
If simply believing is how one is saved, then why are there no examples of it anywhere in the Bible?
Are faith, repentance, confessing Jesus is Lord, baptism, love of God, love of neighbor, and prayer, WORKS ordained by God?
Are the works (cited above) ordained by God included in "apart from works" in Ephesians 2:8-9?
Katie
Last edited by MissKate12; 10-20-2011 at 06:00 AM..
The passage in Mark 16:9-20 is questionable at best, but even so it still defends salvation by faith alone. This is proved by the fact that the negative, being condemned, is because of lack of faith, not believing. What's the condemnation again, lack of faith in the Son of God, not not being baptized.
it does not defend salvation by faith alone.
He that believes and is baptized shall be saved.
There's an order to things. of course you must believe before baptism. Why would anyone be baptized who didn't believe? just good common sense from God.
He that disbelieves shall be condemned.
Does God really have to come out and say and also isn't baptized? No.
if you don't believe, you CAN be baptized all day long and it doesn't matter. Without belief, you can't repent, confess, etc...
But to be saved, it requires both. This is Jesus talking. He also mentions it before his ascension in Matt. 28. What's more, His disciples preached it to the people, AS WELL AS preaching all that he had commanded them.
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Originally Posted by Wretched.elect
So the question is, what is the point of baptism in the above verse, simply this, obedient Christians follow in baptism to show they are disciples of Christ.
Mark 16:14 Afterward He appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at the table; and He reproached them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who had seen Him after He had risen. 15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. 17 These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.” 19 So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God. 20 And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them, and confirmed the word by the signs that followed.
I included the surrounding text as well for my response. Where does it say what Baptism is for? I have read this passage over and over again, and i can't see where it says you are baptized to show that you are disciples of Christ. Now, its true that disciples of Christ SHOULD be baptized, but it is not to show that you are. We have related scriptures to show the purpose of baptism.
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Originally Posted by Wretched.elect
This would get a Jew disowned by his family at best, or killed for blasphemy. Nowhere else is there any fleshly work associated with salvation.
Blessings
Luke 12: 51 Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division; 52 for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three. 53 They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”
disowned by this family? yeah... maybe. Killed? yeah... that too. Obeying Christ, especially in the first century was risky. much more so than today. But Christ still divides families. According to what the believer knows is true.
No fleshly work? When asked what they must do, peter told the crowd in Acts 2 to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins.
Now if Peter told me something i MUST do... I'm gonna take that as something that is necessary. Necessary for what? Well in the above scripture, He's instructing them concerning their sinfulness. Gotta take care of your sins.
So that brings up the point i was trying to make several days ago.
Can you be saved without repentance and subsequently forgiveness of your sins? What does everyone think?
How can you say they didn't trust Christ as their savior? Did they not believe they were doing all that was supposed to be His will?
If they had truested Christ as their saviour, they would be on the other side of the door, but they were outside. What was missing? Not works, because they said they did the works. So what is the missing piece? You know the answer is salvation. They did not have Christ in their hearts. They did not carry the holy spirit, the mark of Christ, their names were not written in the book of life. They were never saved. A lot of people claim to do things in God's name, but it doesn't mean they are saved.
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After all look at their response:
"...have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? "
They obviously believed they should be saved. A non believer would not believe such. Isn't it irrational to believe that they didn't believe they would/should be saved?
There are many people who will be surprised to find themselves in the wrong side of the door. Many are told that you get in if you are a nice guy and treat others nicely, or behave 'lovingly', or if you show up in church on Sundays, or donate to charity, or tithe, or call themselves Christian, or carry a cross around their neck, or have five Bibles around the house, a crusifix dangling from the rear view mirror, a fish sticker on the bumber, or they do and say this and that, but none of that will save you. Either Christ is in you, or He is not. It is that simple.
Examine your faith and see if you pass the test.
2 Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?
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