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Jeshua never commanded baptism...And He certainly did not include not getting baptized with His statemen
t of "those who do not believe will be damned"...I did not have the opportunity to get baptized until later...I did not get saved in a church...
Jesus did command baptism (Matthew 28:18-20)
He said to go make disciples baptizing them.......
I don't know of any christian who doesn't believe Jesus commanded baptism, even those who don't believe it is for salvation. They recognize it as a command of Jesus. I would even guess that Mike555, Saved and Finn would agree with that.
I didn't get saved in a church building either. The Lord added me to His church when I got baptized. That's how it happened to the Jews who believed and were baptized on the day of Pentecost. The Lord added them to His church.
Mike555;21443131] Acts 2:38 means exactly what it says. But you don't know what it is saying.
If I remember correctly, I told you in that first thread where we debated whether water baptism was necessary for salvation of not, that Acts 2:38 is a Chiasmus - an inverted parallelism, a parenthesis. It is a common literary style and is frequently used in the Bible.
,
You say, "Acts 2:38 means exactly what it says," then you add the qualifier "BUT." Then you tell me I don't know what the verse is saying. You think it needs some elaborate explaining. You prove over and over that you do not believe the Bible is the unerring word of God. If you truly believed that, then you would teach the scripture exactly how it reads with none of your private interpretation added.
What gimmicks do you use to get rid of Acts 22:16? Is that mistranslated also? "Arise and be baptized, and have your sins washed away."
You have gone to extreme lengths to explain away every verse that is connected to baptism. You've all but eradicated baptism from the Bible.
You do exactly what the mormons and the jw's do. They will tell you the Bible is inspired, but when they don't like a certain verse, they say it is mistranslated. Then they give you their own version of what the verse should say.
You won't come out and say that the Bible is mistranslated, but your actions speak louder than your words. You change the word order, the meaning, and apply gimmicks to whatever scripture doesn't agree with your false doctrine. You insist that certain scriptures (the ones you don't like) need your explanation because the rest of us are not intelligent enough to understand what they say.
What you are doing is the same as these false religions do, which amounts to saying the Bible is in error. As soon as you leave one scripture open to private interpretation, you open up the entire Bible. You are doing the same as these false teachers, imposing your own private interpretation.
Apparently, you do not believe the word of God is pure, and it needs you to reinterpret it for the rest of us.
You prove over and over that you do not believe the Bible is the unerring word of God. If you truly believed that, then you would teach the scripture exactly how it reads with none of your private interpretation added.
We all do that, Katie. I do. You do. There are a great many verses in the Bible that can (and are) understood differently by different people. That is the nature of language.
Quote:
You do exactly what the mormons and the jw's do. They will tell you the Bible is inspired, but when they don't like a certain verse, they say it is mistranslated. Then they give you their own version of what the verse should say.
Stop bashing my faith. Mormons use the King James Version of the Bible and we don't do what you're accusing us of. Give me one single solitary example of any verse in the Bible that I or any other Mormon you have interacted with has said, "That's a mistranslation." You can't do it.
Quote:
What you are doing is the same as these false religions do, which amounts to saying the Bible is in error. As soon as you leave one scripture open to private interpretation, you open up the entire Bible. You are doing the same as these false teachers, imposing your own private interpretation.
You have your own interpretations, too, Katie. I could give you a verse (not on baptism, since we pretty much agree on that) that I believe I'm reading in a simple, straightforward manner and I can guarantee that you'd say, "Well, that's not what it really means." Then you'd go on to explain why the plain, simple language of the Bible doesn't convey what you are 100% sure God really meant to say. I'm not advocating the idea that everybody should be free to interpret the scriptures in their own way, but the fact is, there are many ways in which certain verses could legitimately be understood. There really is just one "right" interpretation, but we are fallible human beings -- all of us -- and no one should insist that his own interpretation is the only one that could conceivably be right. Eventually, we'll all find out how each and every verse should be understood, but until then, we need to stop calling one another names and slander one another's faith.
You say, "Acts 2:38 means exactly what it says," then you add the qualifier "BUT." Then you tell me I don't know what the verse is saying. You think it needs some elaborate explaining. You prove over and over that you do not believe the Bible is the unerring word of God. If you truly believed that, then you would teach the scripture exactly how it reads with none of your private interpretation added.
What gimmicks do you use to get rid of Acts 22:16? Is that mistranslated also? "Arise and be baptized, and have your sins washed away."
You have gone to extreme lengths to explain away every verse that is connected to baptism. You've all but eradicated baptism from the Bible.
You do exactly what the mormons and the jw's do. They will tell you the Bible is inspired, but when they don't like a certain verse, they say it is mistranslated. Then they give you their own version of what the verse should say.
You won't come out and say that the Bible is mistranslated, but your actions speak louder than your words. You change the word order, the meaning, and apply gimmicks to whatever scripture doesn't agree with your false doctrine. You insist that certain scriptures (the ones you don't like) need your explanation because the rest of us are not intelligent enough to understand what they say.
What you are doing is the same as these false religions do, which amounts to saying the Bible is in error. As soon as you leave one scripture open to private interpretation, you open up the entire Bible. You are doing the same as these false teachers, imposing your own private interpretation.
Apparently, you do not believe the word of God is pure, and it needs you to reinterpret it for the rest of us.
Katie
Your reply is with reference to post #382.
I would like to direct readers back to post #382. In that post, I gave not just a private view of what Acts 2:38 is saying, but referenced what theologians have to say about it.
Take a look.
Against Katie's accusations, those who are interested can simply review my posts and my threads.
It seems that discussions concerning baptism always end up as they do here. I don't think anyone who believes in the Gospel is advocating that a person should not be baptized, but rather what the role and significance baptism plays in their being saved. At least that's how I understand the arguments being presented.
It would seem to me that if someone actually believes (or receives) the Gospel, that they would know they "are saved" prior to being baptized. That is what Paul tells us here:
1Co 15:1 MOREOVER, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
If you actually receive the Gospel when you hear it, how can you possibly not believe that your sins are forgiven (present tense)? Paul tells us that those who receive the proclamation of the Gospel are being saved (present tense). And, those who receive the Gospel do so in the power of the Spirit and with much assurance:
1Th 1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
For those who believe and receive the Gospel, their baptism is for (because of) remission of sins. IOW, on the basis or grounds of their forgiveness and of their being saved (present tense), as clearly stated in the Gospel.
For those who do not believe the Gospel, or perhaps for those who do not receive the Gospel with any assurance, baptism is viewed as something that must be done for their forgiveness of sins. IOW, as being the purpose or aim of what baptism will accomplish for them (future tense).
The bible clearly states that those who receive the Gospel are saved (present tense) by Christ who is proclaimed to us in that Gospel. The problem is that so few believe and receive that Gospel, or Good News.
I think there is a sense in which baptism "saves", or rather makes us whole, and in many ways it is similar to faith, but only in the sense of making known to us what we already possess (perhaps unknowingly) in Christ. IOW, baptism, like faith, reconciles our conscience to God even though we have already been reconciled by God in Christ to Himself (2 Cor. 5:18-19). I think this is probably where the difference occurs when discussing baptism. It's one of perception rather than reality.
Anyway, just my thoughts here.
Last edited by AlabamaStorm; 10-27-2011 at 12:01 AM..
For those who believe and receive the Gospel, their baptism is for (because of) remission of sins. IOW, on the basis or grounds of their forgiveness and of their being saved (present tense), as clearly stated in the Gospel.
For those who do not believe the Gospel, or perhaps for those who do not receive the Gospel with any assurance, baptism is viewed as something that must be done for their forgiveness of sins. IOW, as being the purpose or aim of what baptism will accomplish for them (future tense).
No known English translation of the Bible says baptism is because of remission of sins. You have just written your own translation of Acts 2:38. What you are saying is that Acts 2:38 has been mistranslated, which essentially means that you believe the word of God is in error.
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
We don't only receive the gospel; WE OBEY THE GOSPEL! The word OBEY = WORKS.
8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might
I would like to direct readers back to post #382. In that post, I gave not just a private view of what Acts 2:38 is saying, but referenced what theologians have to say about it.
Take a look.
Against Katie's accusations, those who are interested can simply review my posts and my threads.
I also direct you back to Mike's post #382
Mike says Acts 2:38 means exactly what it says, but then he suggests I do not understand what it means. He applies the following to the verse.
Now presented in the form of a Chiasmus, Acts 2:38 looks like this...
A) Repent .....B) Be Baptized .....B) In the Name of Jesus Christ A) For the remission of sins
'A' goes with 'A' and 'B' goes with 'B'.
Mike says this is what Acts 2:38 really means.
"Repent for the remission of sins, be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ."
Mike says he believes the Bible is inspired and UNERRING. Yet he rewrites Acts 2:38 changing its meaning completely.
Here is the actual verse as written in the NIV.
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Dear reader,
If Satan can get you to believe that the NIV, or any other modern-day commonly accepted translation of the Bible, cannot be trusted for its accuracy, then that opens the door WIDE for him to flood you with every lie he wants to throw at you.
Please accept the Word of God for what it says, not for what someone else tells you it means.
Katie
Last edited by MissKate12; 10-27-2011 at 06:12 AM..
Alabama you said "I don't think anyone who believes in the Gospel is advocating that a person should not be baptized, but rather what the role and significance baptism plays in their being saved".
I agree.
The way I see it being put forth on this thread is as a yoke of bondage.
I am a believer in good works(see Matt 5-7),and how such a thing as baptism as got thrown into the mix of works is beyond me.One thing is quite clear about those in Matt 7 who Jesus said this to"depart from me,for I never knew you",is what they claimed they were doing,prophesying in his name casting out demons in his name and so forth, yo might as well throw in baptizing in his name, going to church in his name,reading the bible in his name,evangelizing in his name,the problem with those he never knew,is what they were not doing. None of those things they claimed to be doing, had nothing to do with the sayings he taught in that Sermon He preached on the Mount of Olives,which basically was a message on loving your neighbor as yourself.
Last edited by pcamps; 10-27-2011 at 07:16 AM..
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