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Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Why does Jeshua not stress the 'baptized' part in His second statement?...If in fact baptism is a requirement?...
why would someone who does not believe in God be baptized? why does He not stress it in the second part? does He have to? Makes sense to me.
by your own admission i need to increase my knowledge... and I understand this. And this isn't even a scripture i point to a lot... since so many people deny its authenticity.
But its pretty easy to understand why. Think about it like this...
You have to do both to be saved... just play along.
if you don't do the first one... what difference does it matter if you do the second? None. it is meaningless.
And belief comes first. if you don't take the first step... That's it! end of story. period.
Wow!...these are a lot of assumptions that you are making here...
You said the same thing about me, and i'm still waiting to see those assumptions i made... and once again, i'm not trying to be difficult with this, but i was accused of making assumptions and i want to see these assumptions so i can either answer them or admit my error.
Luk 23:39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
Luk 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
Luk 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Read it very carefully...For I do not see those four points you made in this dialogue...
1. I see no public confession of Faith.
2. I see no repentance of sins.
3. I see no preaching of Truth.
4. This i do see, however, it does not say HEAVENLY Kingdom.
Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. --- you don't see this as the thief confessing that this man who was being murdered along with him as Lord? Did he realize it was Jesus? Did he know who he was referring to? It was pretty public... there were people everywhere...
also, he identified it as 'thy' kingdom. Jesus as Lord of His kingdom. and yes, i did read your point #4...
this doesn't qualify as a public confession of faith?
Now where would I get credential from?...And it is you who have changed Acts 2:38 to suit your views...You are not seeing the chronological order of events...You seem to have this desire to earn at least a wee bit of your Salvation...
Ahhhh Richie me friend,
I thought the chronology of events were pretty clear, but maybe I'm missing something? Hmmmm.....
Let's look at the passage again for its chronology.
1. Peter tells the Jews they crucified Jesus
2. The people are cut to the heart. They ask, "What shall we do?"
3. Peter tells them what they need to do. "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in thename of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins."
4. With many other words he warned them, and he pleaded with them, SAVE YOURSELVES from this corrupt generation.
At this point the Jews are not saved. Otherwise why would Peter say SAVE YOURSELVES.
Doesn't SAVE YOURSELVES indicate that the Jews MUST DO SOMETHING?
Or am I reading something in that isn't there? What else could SAVE YOURSELVES possibly mean?
5. Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
6. And the LORD added to their number daily whose who were being saved (the church).
I believe that is the chronology.
Now specifically what does Acts 2:38 say?
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.
I am not interpreting the verse to say or mean anything it doesn't say EXACTLY. I am not retranslating. I am not reordering the words. I am not giving any word a new meaning. I believe this scripture says what it means, and means what it says. Again, I refer you to biblos.com. There are seventeen English translations there for your perusal, and all of them say basically the same thing.
So please point out exactly where I have gone wrong chronologically, and exactly how I have changed it to suit my views.
Were the Jews on the day of Pentecost earning their salvation when they accepted Peter's message and were baptized? Notice also, that as soon as they were baptized, the Lord added them to the church. How about that!!!
36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.â€
37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?†38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.†40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.†41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.
why would someone who does not believe in God be baptized? why does He not stress it in the second part? does He have to? Makes sense to me.
by your own admission i need to increase my knowledge... and I understand this. And this isn't even a scripture i point to a lot... since so many people deny its authenticity.
But its pretty easy to understand why. Think about it like this...
You have to do both to be saved... just play along.
if you don't do the first one... what difference does it matter if you do the second? None. it is meaningless.
And belief comes first. if you don't take the first step... That's it! end of story. period.
The thing that you do not understand is that you are not the one taking the steps...You still need to study and aquire more knowledge...Your logic and reason is flawed...As mine once was long ago...
You said the same thing about me, and i'm still waiting to see those assumptions i made... and once again, i'm not trying to be difficult with this, but i was accused of making assumptions and i want to see these assumptions so i can either answer them or admit my error.
See the scene of the thief on the cross...This is what we were talking about I believe...
Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. --- you don't see this as the thief confessing that this man who was being murdered along with him as Lord? Did he realize it was Jesus? Did he know who he was referring to? It was pretty public... there were people everywhere...
also, he identified it as 'thy' kingdom. Jesus as Lord of His kingdom. and yes, i did read your point #4...
this doesn't qualify as a public confession of faith?
Lord can be applied to many people...It does not neccesarily impliy assent to divinity...Just as the Rich man and Lazarus, there is more to it than the surface...Even so, the thief was not baptized and if this is a requirement...well then...
At this point the Jews are not saved. Otherwise why would Peter say SAVE YOURSELVES.
Doesn't SAVE YOURSELVES indicate that the Jews MUST DO SOMETHING?
Or am I reading something in that isn't there? What else could SAVE YOURSELVES possibly mean?
This is not speaking of Eternal Salvation...
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.
I am not interpreting the verse to say or mean anything it doesn't say EXACTLY. I am not retranslating. I am not reordering the words. I am not giving any word a new meaning. I believe this scripture says what it means, and means what it says. Again, I refer you to biblos.com. There are seventeen English translations there for your perusal, and all of them say basically the same thing.
I use the Greek and Hebrew...Which I am not qualified to study in...
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl
36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”
37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.” 40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.
Katie
Well, He certainly is not speaking to Gentiles here...He is speaking to Israelites...And I see nothing there about Believing...Just repenting...It says that the promise is for them and their children...What Promise?...It also says that Hawyaw will do the calling...And it says that Hawyaw added to the church...those that were being saved...not baptized...It did not say that to be save repent and be baptized...It said, for the remission of sins...
G4991
σωτηρία
sōtēria
so-tay-ree'-ah
Feminine of a derivative of G4990 as (properly abstract) noun; rescue or safety (physically or morally): - deliver, health, salvation, save, saving.
Two different words...Two different meanings...
Last edited by Richard1965; 10-31-2011 at 08:17 PM..
Lord can be applied to many people...It does not neccesarily impliy assent to divinity...Just as the Rich man and Lazarus, there is more to it than the surface...Even so, the thief was not baptized and if this is a requirement...well then...
Richard, what made the thief call him Lord? And mention His Kingdom? What made him ask Jesus to remember Him? Remember?????
They are both about to die, Richard. Their memories are about to come to a screaching halt. THEY ARE GOING TO DIE. It's a reality that no one, not even you can deny. What made this guy, who is literal moments away from death, say these things.
It does not necessarily imply assent to divinity? Richard, I KNOW you don't take it as a confession, but do ya think Jesus might have?
You say I need to increase my knowledge. I BELEIVE we all should do that.
And the remark about baptism... You put limits on Jesus' power. He is in a position to do as He will. That's the end of that. He did so with the lame man let down through the roof. He did so with the thief.
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