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Old 10-26-2011, 10:33 PM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
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What is your understanding of the concept of 'Persons' within the Trinity; the Father, Son and Holy Ghost/Spirit?

We all know that God cannot be really divided...so the only meaningful way I see these 'persons' as being distinguished from each other is the ROLE they play. My understanding of the Trinity has always been that the one God merely MANIFESTED himself as Father, Son or Holy Spirit as the situation called for his appearance in that particular manner or form. I think Jesus might appear as a human being in Heaven, but he doesn't have a separate consciousness or sense of self, his and the Father are of the same mind. In that sense I don't really think it matters how you interpret the Trinity, as long as you believe that Jesus is filled with and motivated by God. Obviously not ALL of God can be contained within Jesus the man, because during Jesus' life on Earth God the father was still present in Heaven, so I don't really see it as there being three beings in Heaven called God, which is what many Christians actually seem to believe.

Jesus was like a 'face' of God, if you will, and in that way he WAS God, and symbolically the entirely of the Godhead resided in Him. Yet I don't believe he was a separate being also conferred upon God-like powers, so in effect being equal with God, but again merely a mode that God operates in.

I was surprised that what I believed about the Trinity as a child was closest to this.

http://carm.org/modalism

Which fundamentalist sites like the one above seem to condemn as heresy. I don't believe that the forms were never simultaneously, of course, as God can reveal himself in two modes at the same time...the communication between Jesus and the Father was like two parts of your brain communicating, and also Jesus'' human side communicating with his divine side.
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Old 10-26-2011, 10:50 PM
 
Location: Arizona
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Two become One, not Three.
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Old 10-26-2011, 11:01 PM
 
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Here is an excellent article on the Oneness doctrine that you seem to be leaning towards (modalism).

The Oneness of God

I don't necessarily agree on all points of the Oneness doctrine, but in general I think it puts forth a clear interpretation (or understanding) that advocates for biblical monotheism.
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Old 10-26-2011, 11:06 PM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Here is an excellent article on the Oneness doctrine that you seem to be leaning towards (modalism).

The Oneness of God

I don't necessarily agree on all points of the Oneness doctrine, but in general I think it puts forth a clear interpretation (or understanding) that advocates for biblical monotheism.
Thanks, I may have read that ages ago but I will look through it again. While my personal understand might conflict with 'Oneness' in some areas, with also differs from the most traditional interpretation of Trinitarianism. I don't feel the need to throw my lot in with any group anyway.

The way I see it, back in the early days of the Church, a bunch of men with pointy hats and fancy titles got together to devise an elaborate theology based on their own personal interpretation of the 'Trinity'. As the early Roman Catholic Church developed it weeded out opposing beliefs on the grounds of them being 'heresy' (for instance, by burning people on the stake) which has survived to this day in the official dogmas of both the Catholic and Protestant churches. The leaders of these Churches now claim that anyone who does not hold to their specific understanding of the Trinity, handed down as unquestionable 'tradition' is not truly saved, deceived by false teachings and headed for, you guessed it, the lake that burneth with sulfur and brimstone.
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Old 10-26-2011, 11:22 PM
 
Location: Beautiful Niagara Falls ON.
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The Trinity while not completely understandable, along with a lot of other things of God,it is totally biblical in every way. We are even told to baptise in the name of The Father , The Son and The Holy Spirit.
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Old 10-26-2011, 11:26 PM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
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Originally Posted by lucknow View Post
The Trinity while not completely understandable, along with a lot of other things of God,it is totally biblical in every way. We are even told to baptise in the name of The Father , The Son and The Holy Spirit.
Which is exactly why people like those at that website should not try to define it so exactly. Everyone has a different understanding of the Trinity, apparently some might call some interpretations non-Trinitarian. I think as long as you believe the basics, that Jesus is God and he came to die for the sins or humanity, it doesn't matter whether you're a Modalist or whatever.
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Old 10-26-2011, 11:36 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
What is your understanding of the concept of 'Persons' within the Trinity; the Father, Son and Holy Ghost/Spirit?

We all know that God cannot be really divided...so the only meaningful way I see these 'persons' as being distinguished from each other is the ROLE they play. My understanding of the Trinity has always been that the one God merely MANIFESTED himself as Father, Son or Holy Spirit as the situation called for his appearance in that particular manner or form. I think Jesus might appear as a human being in Heaven, but he doesn't have a separate consciousness or sense of self, his and the Father are of the same mind. In that sense I don't really think it matters how you interpret the Trinity, as long as you believe that Jesus is filled with and motivated by God. Obviously not ALL of God can be contained within Jesus the man, because during Jesus' life on Earth God the father was still present in Heaven, so I don't really see it as there being three beings in Heaven called God, which is what many Christians actually seem to believe.

Jesus was like a 'face' of God, if you will, and in that way he WAS God, and symbolically the entirely of the Godhead resided in Him. Yet I don't believe he was a separate being also conferred upon God-like powers, so in effect being equal with God, but again merely a mode that God operates in.

I was surprised that what I believed about the Trinity as a child was closest to this.

Modalism|What is Modalism? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

Which fundamentalist sites like the one above seem to condemn as heresy. I don't believe that the forms were never simultaneously, of course, as God can reveal himself in two modes at the same time...the communication between Jesus and the Father was like two parts of your brain communicating, and also Jesus'' human side communicating with his divine side.


God is one in essence and three in Persons. All three Persons of the Godhead indwell the body of the church-age believer.

The indwelling of God the Father: John 14:23; Eph 4:6; Phil 2:13; 1 John 4:15; 2 John 1:9.

The indwelling of God the Son - Jesus Christ: John 14:20; John 17:22-23,26; Rom 8:10; 2 Cor 13:5; Gal 2:20; Col 1:27.

The indwelling of God the Holy Spirit: Rom 8:11; 1 Cor 3:16; 1 Cor 6:19; 2 Cor 6:16;

In John 14:23 Jesus states that both He and the Father will make their abode with the believer. ''...If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him, and make Our abode with him.


All three Persons at the same time are spoken of as indwelling the believer. If God was only manifesting Himself in three different modes, then His indwelling would not be spoken of as three different Persons.

In John 15:26, Jesus is speaking. 'When the helper (God the Holy Spirit) comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, He will bear witness of Me.

John 15:26 reveals that three different individuals are being spoken of. Not three different manifestations of God the Father.

In John chapter 17, in His high priestly prayer, Jesus speaks of the glory that He had with the Father in eternity past, before creation existed.

John 17:5 ''And now, glorify Thou Me together with Thyself, Father, with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was.

John 17:5 reveals that in eternity past before the universe even existed, Jesus, as God, existed with the Father and had the same glory as the Father. Now, why would God manifest Himself in two different modes before He even had created the universe? For what purpose?

God is three different Persons who are united as One in their essence, nature, substance. And so it has been from all eternity past.
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Old 10-26-2011, 11:44 PM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
God is one in essence and three in Persons. All three Persons of the Godhead indwell the body of the church-age believer.

The indwelling of God the Father: John 14:23; Eph 4:6; Phil 2:13; 1 John 4:15; 2 John 1:9.

The indwelling of God the Son - Jesus Christ: John 14:20; John 17:22-23,26; Rom 8:10; 2 Cor 13:5; Gal 2:20; Col 1:27.

The indwelling of God the Holy Spirit: Rom 8:11; 1 Cor 3:16; 1 Cor 6:19; 2 Cor 6:16;

In John 14:23 Jesus states that both He and the Father will make their abode with the believer. ''...If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him, and make Our abode with him.


All three Persons at the same time are spoken of as indwelling the believer. If God was only manifesting Himself in three different modes, then His indwelling would not be spoken of as three different Persons.

In John 15:26, Jesus is speaking. 'When the helper (God the Holy Spirit) comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, He will bear witness of Me.

John 15:26 reveals that three different individuals are being spoken of. Not three different manifestations of God the Father.

In John chapter 17, in His high priestly prayer, Jesus speaks of the glory that He had with the Father in eternity past, before creation existed.

John 17:5 ''And now, glorify Thou Me together with Thyself, Father, with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was.

John 17:5 reveals that in eternity past before the universe even existed, Jesus, as God, existed with the Father and had the same glory as the Father. Now, why would God manifest Himself in two different modes before He even had created the universe? For what purpose?

God is three different Persons who are united as One in their essence, nature, substance. And so it has been from all eternity past.

So where there two (or three?) spirits together, one called God the Father and one called God the Son? How is that different to say Zeus and his son. Both are separate gods, but have the same power. It's like calling me and my father one being, when we're really two, and redefining 'God' as a family, rather than a single being.

If God is God and All in All, why so insistent on distinguishing the 'persons' within the Trinity?
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Old 10-27-2011, 12:07 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
So where there two (or three?) spirits together, one called God the Father and one called God the Son? How is that different to say Zeus and his son. Both are separate gods, but have the same power. It's like calling me and my father one being, when we're really two, and redefining 'God' as a family, rather than a single being.

If God is God and All in All, why so insistent on distinguishing the 'persons' within the Trinity?
God in His nature, substance, or essence is Spirit. Spirit is not physical and so you can't understand God in physical terms. We can't truly understand what is actually not comprehensible. You have to simply accept what the Bible says. And the Bible describes God as three Persons who have the same essence. One God in three Persons.

I again point you to what Jesus said in John 17. This is clearly two Persons in eternity past (the Holy Spirit is not being spoken of here) rather than two manifestations of one Person.

Why so insistent on distinquishing the Persons within the trinity? In the interest of Truth!!! Because the Scriptures do!!!
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Old 10-27-2011, 12:14 AM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
God in His nature, substance, or essence is Spirit. Spirit is not physical and so you can't understand God in physical terms. We can't truly understand what is actually not comprehensible. You have to simply accept what the Bible says. And the Bible describes God as three Persons who have the same essence. One God in three Persons.

I again point you to what Jesus said in John 17. This is clearly two Persons in eternity past (the Holy Spirit is not being spoken of here) rather than two manifestations of one Person.

Why so insistent on distinquishing the Persons within the trinity? In the interest of Truth!!! Because the Scriptures do!!!
Actually the Bible never says there are 'three persons.' It's an interpretation inferred by passages such as Matthew 28:19. A Monarchist or Modalist could equally argue for their point of view from other passages, such as when Jesus says that He and the Father are One.

I agree, though, we don't know the exact nature of the trinity, 'personhood' or whatever, or what any of it even means.

But what does that actually mean, two persons in eternity past? Two separate consciousnesses? Answer me this, how do you imagine this? Do you imagine two spirits, both with the title of God, living together? Jesus was spirit before the incarnation, but how was he distinguished from God, who is also spirit? Two spirits with distinct identities, how is that different from two gods? Terminology does not change the fact that is bordering on or is polytheism. I tend to believe the 'persons' were more aspects of the unity of God, rather than separate beings. I think it expresses the multi-faceted nature of the Godhead, I suppose...although maybe you're right and the truth really is a kind of polytheism, then?
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