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Old 10-25-2011, 08:15 PM
 
537 posts, read 454,479 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I am not going to keep going over these things with you. Lordship salvation is a heresy. It is salvation based on works. It has nothing to do with being a disciple after salvation.

Again, the heresy of Lordship salvation can be researched on the internet. Those interested can pull up the information on Google or Bing, etc...

Obeying Christ after salvation is not legalism. But any kind of works for the purpose of earning salvation is legalism. And the stench of legalism is nauseating.


Oh! I originally thought this was posted by another poster. My mistake. What I said still applies however. Simply research what Lordship salvation means.
Here is a link ---> What is Lordship salvation?
Hi, Mike

The link looks pretty good. The little bit that I know about the topic of Lordship salvation is just that we believe on Christ as both Lord and Savior. I believe the link is correct when it refers to spiritual growth, and how it tends to occur differently for different believers.

As Spirit-indwelled believers, our passions have changed in the sense that now we have a desire to serve God that we hadn't known before. In a widely acclaimed book, entitled The Gospel According to Jesus by John Mac Arthur (himself a dispensationalist), he subtitles the book, "What Does Jesus Mean When He Says, "Follow Me"?

I think this is what Mac Arthur is trying to emphasize in his book, dispelling the idea of "easy believism". I haven't looked very well at the recent posts here, but I would think that Bible-believing Christians would not wish to become legalistic about the idea of seving Christ as Lord.

We see the dilemma that the apostle Paul faces in Romans 7. He delights in the law of God according to the "inward man". But in verse 23 he says, "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Then he concludes the matter in verses 24 and 25: "O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin".

So, yes. It is a process and a struggle. God empowers the believer not to be in bondage to sin. But it is certainly a struggle, per Galatians 5:16,17:

16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would

Both of these verses are the Word of God. But we see in verse 17 that verse 16 doesn't necessarily come overly easily. The only thing that would be a disaster would be the idea that somehow this would be a prerequisite of some kind to becoming saved (as I believe some may have even stated).

But, again, I looked quickly at the link you provided, and it seems quite reasonable.
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Old 10-26-2011, 01:32 AM
 
2,541 posts, read 2,529,489 times
Reputation: 336
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I am not going to keep going over these things with you. Lordship salvation is a heresy. It is salvation based on works. It has nothing to do with being a disciple after salvation.

Again, the heresy of Lordship salvation can be researched on the internet. Those interested can pull up the information on Google or Bing, etc...

Obeying Christ after salvation is not legalism. But any kind of works for the purpose of earning salvation is legalism. And the stench of legalism is nauseating.


Oh! I originally thought this was posted by another poster. My mistake. What I said still applies however. Simply research what Lordship salvation means.
Here is a link ---> What is Lordship salvation?
Well I agree and any other believer should agree that working for salvation is contrary to receiving salvation by faith. It is a shame that a works method is given the label of Lordship salvation because it is very misleading and a misnomer. As the article in your link says one can not always tell if another is trusting in works or in faith after salvation. That is the crux of the mater.
1COR 4:5 "Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels [ if the works are inspired of faith and the Spirit or not] of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God." We are not to judge these matters of the heart. 1COR 4:4 "For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but He that judges me is the Lord." To many say this or that was not inspired when they know nothing of anothers heart or how God is leading them through life. Of coarse this subject matter is not talking about down right sin but of all the other issues of life.

Paul is saying that all that he or we do, can not be judged whether it is motivated by the Spirit or not because the heart is so complex and our interactions with others are also. However certainly what he wrote was inspired. Siting down in the quite of the presence of the Lord and receiving revelation for pure doctrine is not the same as doing everything by the Spirit on the fly as Jesus did. Even if we did everything according to Gods will, none of these things would justify a man, only Christ's salvation does.

Some do trust in works and others trust Jesus for salvation and their works flow that, whether it be hay, wood stubble, silver, or gold but all are saved by faith not the works. On the practical side however one can not be saved from poverty if he does not obey God to go to work or obey God to some other thing. This is what in means when the Bible says faith without works is dead. I do not preach a salvation [justification] based upon works no matter what you think I'm saying. Faith in Christ for salvation and faith in His working through you to do the will of God is all of faith even when we fall short.
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Old 10-26-2011, 02:22 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,941 posts, read 26,170,830 times
Reputation: 16099
Quote:
Originally Posted by JAA2310 View Post
Hi, Mike

The link looks pretty good. The little bit that I know about the topic of Lordship salvation is just that we believe on Christ as both Lord and Savior. I believe the link is correct when it refers to spiritual growth, and how it tends to occur differently for different believers.

As Spirit-indwelled believers, our passions have changed in the sense that now we have a desire to serve God that we hadn't known before. In a widely acclaimed book, entitled The Gospel According to Jesus by John Mac Arthur (himself a dispensationalist), he subtitles the book, "What Does Jesus Mean When He Says, "Follow Me"?

I think this is what Mac Arthur is trying to emphasize in his book, dispelling the idea of "easy believism". I haven't looked very well at the recent posts here, but I would think that Bible-believing Christians would not wish to become legalistic about the idea of seving Christ as Lord.

We see the dilemma that the apostle Paul faces in Romans 7. He delights in the law of God according to the "inward man". But in verse 23 he says, "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Then he concludes the matter in verses 24 and 25: "O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin".

So, yes. It is a process and a struggle. God empowers the believer not to be in bondage to sin. But it is certainly a struggle, per Galatians 5:16,17:

16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would

Both of these verses are the Word of God. But we see in verse 17 that verse 16 doesn't necessarily come overly easily. The only thing that would be a disaster would be the idea that somehow this would be a prerequisite of some kind to becoming saved (as I believe some may have even stated).

But, again, I looked quickly at the link you provided, and it seems quite reasonable.
I could have picked a number of different links. I just quickly chose that one after looking at it.

There is no such thing as ''easy believism'' or ''cheap grace.'' It is free grace. Free for us because it was Jesus who paid the price. We don't and can't work for our salvation, because Jesus already did all the work in providing salvation for us. Therefore we simply trust in Him to receive the free gift of eternal life.

As a believer grows spiritually he recognizes and appreciates more and more the fact that Jesus Christ is Lord. The new believer cannot be expected to truly appreciate that. And the unbeliever absolutely cannot appreciate that. What the unbeliever needs to understand is that Jesus Christ died for his sins thereby making eternal salvation possible for those who trust in His finished work on the cross.

Yes, it is a struggle. Walking in the Spirit is something that only a believer can do. It requires naming your sins to God the Father as per 1 John 1:9, preferably as soon as you commit the sin, rather than letting them accumulate, so that you log a maximum amount of time under the filling of the Holy Spirit who is the enabler of the spiritual life, and then continuing to both learn and apply the word of God to the circumstances of your life.

The thing to remember is that Lordship salvation makes works a requirement for salvation. But the gift of eternal salvation is absolutely free for us, because Jesus Christ paid the price for us on the cross. You can do nothing to earn it. However, if after you have been saved though faith alone in Christ alone, you wish to be a disciple of Jesus, then that is going to cost you time, effort, suffering.

While works don't have anything to do with eternal salvation, they are a part of the believers spiritual life. Good works require the filling of the Holy Spirit, and those works will increase as a result of spiritual growth. They are not the means of producing spiritual growth.

Last edited by Michael Way; 10-26-2011 at 02:40 AM..
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Old 10-26-2011, 07:07 AM
 
9,666 posts, read 1,182,706 times
Reputation: 742
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
katie made this same accusation in post #361 of the following thread ---> http://www.city-data.com/forum/chris...-works-37.html I refuted her in post #363.

Katie, since you persist in claiming that I ever said that all of our current modern day accepted translations of the Bible are mistranslated than find the post where you claim that I said it AND POST IT HERE FOR ALL TO SEE.

As I also told you in the other thread, you consistantly show extremely poor comprehension skills.

You were also refuted concerning your claim that I don't accept Jesus as Lord in posts # 121, 139 and 156 of this thread.

Refrain from making accusations and getting personal. You only show your true colors when you do that.
Mike, is telling someone they have poor comprehension skills personal? Is calling someone a legalist personal? Is tagging someone with Lordship salvation personal? How about heretic, is that personal? Go back over your posts to me, and see how often you get personal. Maybe you don't realize it, but your posts are very offensive.

So can we both agree to make a serious effort to not be personal?

Here's the thing Mike. You have repeatedly, in many different threads, made the claim that Acts 2:38 when translated from the original Greek should say something other than what it says. In other words, you say it is MISTRANSLATED,

Mistranslated = Error

Either you believe the Bible is UNERRING, or you don't. If it is mistranslated, then it is in error.

Do you believe Acts 2:38 mistranslated? If it is, then we have a problem. The Bible has an error.

38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

From what you have said on the threads, you don't believe that Jesus is LORD until after you are saved. In other words, you don't have to obey His command to be baptized until after salvation. If I am wrong in what I am saying, then please explain.

That is where we differ. I believe Jesus is my Lord and Savior, and He was my Lord and Savior from day one.

How can Jesus be anyone's Lord if they don't obey His command?

Now if I am wrong, please don't refer me to some article to read. I rarely, if ever, read articles posted on the forum. I'd much rather go to the Bible for my information. I would love for you to explain in your own words exactly when Jesus became your Lord.

You see, you brought up this Lordship salvation stuff. I had heard the term before but never paid much attention to it because it's not found in the Bible. If you can point to scriptures that pertain to it, I would be happy to read those, but I don't want to clutter my brain with articles written by men.

I believe Jesus is Lord and Savior. I have submitted to Him from the beginning. He commanded me to be baptized. I obeyed. And you call that heresy? I don't understand.

I believe that the Bible is the inspired, unerring word of God. I don't think anything found in the Bible has been mistranslated. I accept it all as it is written.

Katie
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Old 10-26-2011, 07:14 AM
 
9,666 posts, read 1,182,706 times
Reputation: 742
Quote:
Originally Posted by garya123 View Post
Well I agree and any other believer should agree that working for salvation is contrary to receiving salvation by faith. It is a shame that a works method is given the label of Lordship salvation because it is very misleading and a misnomer. As the article in your link says one can not always tell if another is trusting in works or in faith after salvation. That is the crux of the mater.
1COR 4:5 "Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels [ if the works are inspired of faith and the Spirit or not] of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God." We are not to judge these matters of the heart. 1COR 4:4 "For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but He that judges me is the Lord." To many say this or that was not inspired when they know nothing of anothers heart or how God is leading them through life. Of coarse this subject matter is not talking about down right sin but of all the other issues of life.

Paul is saying that all that he or we do, can not be judged whether it is motivated by the Spirit or not because the heart is so complex and our interactions with others are also. However certainly what he wrote was inspired. Siting down in the quite of the presence of the Lord and receiving revelation for pure doctrine is not the same as doing everything by the Spirit on the fly as Jesus did. Even if we did everything according to Gods will, none of these things would justify a man, only Christ's salvation does.

Some do trust in works and others trust Jesus for salvation and their works flow that, whether it be hay, wood stubble, silver, or gold but all are saved by faith not the works. On the practical side however one can not be saved from poverty if he does not obey God to go to work or obey God to some other thing. This is what in means when the Bible says faith without works is dead. I do not preach a salvation [justification] based upon works no matter what you think I'm saying. Faith in Christ for salvation and faith in His working through you to do the will of God is all of faith even when we fall short.
Is it possible that people obey the commands of Jesus because they love Him? Is it possible that people obey the commands of Jesus because they believe and trust in His promises (Hebrews 5:9, Acts 5:32)

For me, when I first came to believe, all I wanted to do was please God by doing whatever He asked me to do. Is that wrong?

Katie
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Old 10-26-2011, 08:47 AM
 
537 posts, read 454,479 times
Reputation: 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I could have picked a number of different links. I just quickly chose that one after looking at it.

There is no such thing as ''easy believism'' or ''cheap grace.'' It is free grace. Free for us because it was Jesus who paid the price. We don't and can't work for our salvation, because Jesus already did all the work in providing salvation for us. Therefore we simply trust in Him to receive the free gift of eternal life.

As a believer grows spiritually he recognizes and appreciates more and more the fact that Jesus Christ is Lord. The new believer cannot be expected to truly appreciate that. And the unbeliever absolutely cannot appreciate that. What the unbeliever needs to understand is that Jesus Christ died for his sins thereby making eternal salvation possible for those who trust in His finished work on the cross.

Yes, it is a struggle. Walking in the Spirit is something that only a believer can do. It requires naming your sins to God the Father as per 1 John 1:9, preferably as soon as you commit the sin, rather than letting them accumulate, so that you log a maximum amount of time under the filling of the Holy Spirit who is the enabler of the spiritual life, and then continuing to both learn and apply the word of God to the circumstances of your life.

The thing to remember is that Lordship salvation makes works a requirement for salvation. But the gift of eternal salvation is absolutely free for us, because Jesus Christ paid the price for us on the cross. You can do nothing to earn it. However, if after you have been saved though faith alone in Christ alone, you wish to be a disciple of Jesus, then that is going to cost you time, effort, suffering.

While works don't have anything to do with eternal salvation, they are a part of the believers spiritual life. Good works require the filling of the Holy Spirit, and those works will increase as a result of spiritual growth. They are not the means of producing spiritual growth.
Good post. Whenever easy believism is spoken about properly, it is always mentioned as something not legitimate.

True saving faith is entirely dependent on God's work in the individual, where the individual is made a new creation in Christ. God gives him a new heart and puts His Spirit within him/her. Otherwise, being spiritually dead, he cannot (truly) receive the truth contained in the gospel message.

This idea of easy believism is really a fabrication, and not something that accompanies salvation. It's as if one could beileve intellectually (just believe some facts about Jesus, and say he believes in Him), but this is not a belief unto salvation. To say that I believe and have no real interest in the things of the Lord, or to not demonstate the fruit of the Spirit in my life to some degree, would effectively be a contradiction.

Even the idea of godly remorse over sin (where this kind of remorse would not be seen in the unregenerate individual)...this would also be a differentiating factor.

Of course, we have that flesh vs. spirit issue that will trouble us until we're caught up to be with the Lord in the end.
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Old 10-26-2011, 09:37 AM
 
537 posts, read 454,479 times
Reputation: 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
Is it possible that people obey the commands of Jesus because they love Him? Is it possible that people obey the commands of Jesus because they believe and trust in His promises (Hebrews 5:9, Acts 5:32)

For me, when I first came to believe, all I wanted to do was please God by doing whatever He asked me to do. Is that wrong?

Katie
No, I don't believe it is wrong, at all. But I think we need to be careful with thinking that it in any way precedes salvation.
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Old 10-26-2011, 09:57 AM
 
1,263 posts, read 1,383,335 times
Reputation: 182
Where does the Bible teach that water baptism is required in order to have one's sins forgiven? Every time the phrase "for the remission of sins" occurs it is speaking of the fact that sins have been forgiven previously! The Bible plainly teaches that the forgiveness of sins is conditioned upon repentance of sin and faith in Christ - never upon water baptism! (Matthew 3:11; Luke 24:47; Acts 3:19; Acts 5:31; Acts 10:43; Acts 20:21; Romans 1:16; Romans 4:5)

Where does the Bible teach that forgiveness of sin is linked with water baptism? When Christ made the statement in Matthew 26:28, "for the remission of sins," it had to be because they had been forgiven all through the Old Testament! Christ shed His blood because God forgave repentant and believing sinners for thousands of years before the Son of God came to "take away" sins and to redeem us and pay the sin-debt with His own precious blood. How can one say that "for the remission of sins" means 'in order to obtain' in light of the fact that God never uses the phrase in that sense?

In the Old Testament God forgave sin on the basis of a blood sacrifice (Heb. 9:22) - the Old Testament saints had their sins remitted (i.e., forgiven) but they were not redeemed until Christ came and shed His blood at Calvary. Their sins were covered (Romans 4:7; Psalm 32:1), but the sinner was not cleared of his guilt (Exodus 34:7) until the Cross (Heb.10:4). Before Calvary, the sins of believers were pardoned, but they were not paid for (i.e., redeemed) until the crucifixion (see Romans 3:25 and Heb. 9:12-15). When Jesus said, "It is finished," (John 19:30), all sin - past, present and future - was paid for, and the plan of salvation was completed, so that 'whosoever believeth in Him shall receive remission of sins' (Acts 10:43).

In Acts 2:38, the people were baptized because their sins were forgiven (at Calvary when Jesus said, "Father, forgive them,") and they received the blessing of forgiveness when they repented of their sin of rejecting Christ and accepted Him as their Lord and Savior.
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Old 10-26-2011, 11:46 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,941 posts, read 26,170,830 times
Reputation: 16099
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
Mike, is telling someone they have poor comprehension skills personal? Is calling someone a legalist personal? Is tagging someone with Lordship salvation personal? How about heretic, is that personal? Go back over your posts to me, and see how often you get personal. Maybe you don't realize it, but your posts are very offensive.

So can we both agree to make a serious effort to not be personal?

Here's the thing Mike. You have repeatedly, in many different threads, made the claim that Acts 2:38 when translated from the original Greek should say something other than what it says. In other words, you say it is MISTRANSLATED,

Mistranslated = Error

Either you believe the Bible is UNERRING, or you don't. If it is mistranslated, then it is in error.

Do you believe Acts 2:38 mistranslated? If it is, then we have a problem. The Bible has an error.

38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

From what you have said on the threads, you don't believe that Jesus is LORD until after you are saved. In other words, you don't have to obey His command to be baptized until after salvation. If I am wrong in what I am saying, then please explain.

That is where we differ. I believe Jesus is my Lord and Savior, and He was my Lord and Savior from day one.

How can Jesus be anyone's Lord if they don't obey His command?

Now if I am wrong, please don't refer me to some article to read. I rarely, if ever, read articles posted on the forum. I'd much rather go to the Bible for my information. I would love for you to explain in your own words exactly when Jesus became your Lord.

You see, you brought up this Lordship salvation stuff. I had heard the term before but never paid much attention to it because it's not found in the Bible. If you can point to scriptures that pertain to it, I would be happy to read those, but I don't want to clutter my brain with articles written by men.

I believe Jesus is Lord and Savior. I have submitted to Him from the beginning. He commanded me to be baptized. I obeyed. And you call that heresy? I don't understand.

I believe that the Bible is the inspired, unerring word of God. I don't think anything found in the Bible has been mistranslated. I accept it all as it is written.

Katie
No. Here is the thing. The fact that you keep making this accusation --> 'You have repeatedly, in many different threads, made the claim that Acts 2:38 when translated from the original Greek should say something other than what it says. In other words, you say it is MISTRANSLATED,' is one example of your poor comprehension skills.

The heresy is believing that water baptism is necessary to be eternally saved. The heresy is believing that a believer can lose or walk away from his salvation. But you absolutely do not understand this.

The fact that you will not refer to what Theologians have to say indicates an unwillingness to learn.

Concerning Acts 2:38 and the matter of you being a legalist, see post #382 of the following thread ---> http://www.city-data.com/forum/chris...ith-works.html
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Old 10-26-2011, 04:50 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 12,434,921 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The heresy is believing that a believer can lose or walk away from his salvation. .

God clearly states how one can recieve the "Gift":

Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”


The "gift" of the Holy Spirit is faith ... not the it's a ritual. Minimizing baptism to a just ritual is denigrating the means of grace. That is the heresy.

Another hersey claim is that people can't lose his\her faith.
2 Timothy 2:12
if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;


Revelation 2:4-5
I hold this against you: You have forsaken your first love. Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place
" If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place" .......... not only can a person lose his faith, that person is damned.
And what's more, that person's punishment will be more severe than those from Sodom who never had the light.
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