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I've been fighting this.......truly, I have. I changed my belief to UR, which sounded more reasonable to me and completely scriptural but now....and for quite a while.....I just can't do it anymore. I don't believe myself and I can't convince myself otherwise. I don't buy the Bible anymore, it's so contradictory and backward and there are some posts in another thread that finally prompted me to admit this. I see no evidence for belief, none at all.
When I really get down to the brass tax, all the arguments are just more indication to me that none of us really knows what we are talking about, and some of us don't know what to believe. I leave this open for discussion but I'm telling you, I just don't know anymore.
I have to take off, but feel free to comment however you see fit. I'll respond eventually.
Ilene, the best thing I can suggest is first, that you get away from this forum. Very little Biblical truth is presented here. Most of what is posted here is Biblically unsound. Most of those who post here don't know what they are talking about, and without being well grounded in Bible doctrine, you can't help but to be influenced and confused by what you are exposed to here.
Second, I strongly suggest that you expose yourself to sound doctrinal teaching from pastors who know and can accurately teach the word of God. Granted that most pastors at most churches do not teach Bible doctrine. But such churches, and such pastors do exist.
Do yourself a favor and give the following pastors a hearing. If what is taught is not to your liking, then it isn't. But you will not know unless you give it a hearing. Things just may begin to make sense to you. I hope that you will give it a chance and not just dismiss it without even listening.
Which begs the question, Ilene, what did you base your faith on?
My belief is based on God presence and His action in my life thru the Holy Spirit. The Bible stuff came later. God is my foundation and God lead me to Christ. After that I got a Bible and started to read.
The best advice that Ilene need to get back to the Bible and stop relying on emotions \ gut feelings \ on some inner voice revelation advice. Most of the advice from people here do not confine God's wisdom soley to the Bible.
No prayers will go answered by the true God from people who confesses to be agnostic. God doesn't answer prayers from sincere agnostic and prayers to a non triune God doesn't get answered by the true God.
Ah yes; the thinly disguised threats and promises of being abandoned by her once-savior God. You're also accusing her of arriving at her newfound position of intellect and understanding by "emotions", "gut feelings" or "some inner voice". All shallow reasons to be sure, and your ideas of how anyone becomes agnostic? Hmmm... How respectful!
How's about her careful analysis, review of the evidence, higher-end philosophical discussions with those who out-rank you on the deeper meanings of some of the bible's obvious contradictions, and so on? You demean and belittle her efforts, and purposefully. If I'm not mis-understanding, she's already taken the courageous position to tell you all that she's become an agnostic. And so you go for the cheap shots. Great tactics!
Now will come all the ministrations and the attempts to round her up and drag her back in to your corral. Yeah; that ought to work, FurShur!!. If she was not entirely convinced, she'll certainly be so now.
Things like this one:
Quote:
" But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man ‘unclean.’ "
Hear that, Irene? Now you're "unclean". I had no idea! Or this...
Quote:
" Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved."
How was that intimate discussion with the devil? Or this surly little number...
Quote:
And a highway will be there; it will be called the Way of Holiness. The unclean will not journey on it; it will be for those who walk in that Way; wicked fools will not go about on it.
Unclean and wicked as well! You're quite the little lady!
Or the following "absolute" declaration which flies in the face of her carefully examined and thought-out review & decisions:
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
Agnosticism is not going down the right path.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ
Did she say there was no God?
To learn something is not to try and relearn, but to start anew.
And how do you know it isn't the right path? It was the path I was led down, so am I also on the wrong path?? What saith you?
So... by corollary, both Irene and I am thus on that wrong path? What saith you?
Biut... I guess someone's got to be on that "wrong path", huh? I'm here to tell you that you are, not her nor I. Let this courageous woman express and enjoy her own thoughts! Or at the very least, you should have the intellectual decency to put your ideas down[i.e.: that you thought of yourself] in plain English.
No more Cut & Paste Rescue Evangelism, OK? Unless of course, you can't manage that?
Irene, be thou strong in the face of those who wouldst deceive you!
Ilene, a book that I found very helpful was
THE CHRISTIAN AGNOSTIC by UR, Dr. Leslie Weatherhead.
My favorite quote that I have had memorized for many years and love to frequently repeat is from this book.
“God’s purposes are so vast and glorious, beyond all guessing now, that when they are achieved and consummated, all our sufferings and sorrows of today, even the agonies that nearly break our faith, the disasters that well nigh overwhelm us, shall, seen from that fair country where God’s age long dreams come true, bulk as little as bulk now the pieces of a broken toy upon a nursery floor, over which, thinking that all our little world was in ruins, we cried ourselves to sleep.”
Dr. Leslie Weatherhead
Ilene, I think Katzpur had the wisest comment. Seek God. Even if you think you might be losing faith, reach out with an "if you're real" type of seeking. He will listen. IMO, it sounds like you are losing faith in the bible, but maybe not God Himself (it's not the same thing.) Maybe you're confused about one person saying "the bible says this," and another saying, "the bible says that." Take a break from that, go to the most beautiful place you can imagine - I think you love the Blue Ridge Mountains - right? Go to where you once felt close to Him, and seek Him. Have you ever felt peace or love, been given mercy, or had your fears calmed? That's all Him - not a book. "You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart." Keep seeking, sister.
I remember when my husband and I went sailing (first time for me) one night and pondered on the awesome power that moved the boat forward, cutting through the water with such graceful speed...THE WIND. The beautiful sound it creates while pushing the sails forward gave me a feeling of such serenity akin to being in the presence of a loving God.
I get those same feelings in my near life-long enjoyment and examination of the outdoors, of the truly fascinating depths of nature's marvels and achievements.
Now of course, I did it all absent any "hand of God", since I am a multi-degreed scientist (engineering, biology, and another biology, and yet another biology, plus some post-post-post grad geology and engineering...). Those enlightenments coupled with, I suppose, my natural skepticism (some of us are blessed with critical thinking & observational skills; others are obviously not, preferring to have others do their thinking for them...)
Darned if all those advanced deliberations on geology, Evolution and biochemistry and mammalian genetics developments over the eons didn't help me sort through it all, and put my amazements in the right perspective! Now, post Christianity, I can be awe-struck to an even higher degree, with no overlay of mandatory conditions, theology or limitations that organized religion requires.
And now, Ilene has achieved some of that same clarity. Moderator cut: off topic Hey! Tell yah what; why not say to Ilene: "Well, strictly based on my beliefs, I'm personally sorry you made this decision, but I applaud and respect the personal sacrifice and dedication to your own ideas and principles you've achieved here!" ?
Moderator cut: off topic
______________________________
Ilene; here's a more useful and positive suggestion: why not, over on the Religion & Philosophy sub, drop all us nice & respectful folks over there a quick note, a brief version of your post here, and see the sort of accolades and showers of honest affection and recognition you'll receive there.
Moderator cut: off topic
Again, stay strong, girl! [mod]off topic]/mod]
Last edited by rifleman; 10-20-2011 at 05:48 PM..
Reason: deleted the insults for you..
Ilene - Back to basics, before you go any further.
Do you believe the Jesus Christ was sent to earth to die for your sins, and that He died, was buried, and rose on the third day according to the Scriptures?
Don't proceed any further - just answer that alone.
I have a tendency to not believe any of it at this point. I believe there is a God and that He is love, but that's about it at this point.
Ilene; here's a more useful and positive suggestion: why not, over on the Religion & Philosophy sub, drop all us nice & respectful folks over there a quick note, a brief version of your post here, and see the sort of accolades and showers of honest affection and recognition you'll receive there.
What makes you think Ilene is looking for accolades or recognition? She seems to be above all that to me.
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THE CHRISTIAN AGNOSTIC by Dr. Leslie Weatherhead
IMO, it sounds like you are losing faith in the bible, but maybe not God Himself (it's not the same thing.) Maybe you're confused about one person saying "the bible says this," and another saying, "the bible says that." Take a break from that, go to the most beautiful place you can imagine - I think you love the Blue Ridge Mountains - right? Go to where you once felt close to Him, and seek Him. Have you ever felt peace or love, been given mercy, or had your fears calmed? That's all Him - not a book. "You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart." Keep seeking, sister.
Alternate Directions, given the retorts here....
[mod]off topic]/mod]
She seems to be above all that to me.