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Old 10-31-2011, 12:29 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,763,184 times
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Why is anyone afraid of the doctrine of UR?

I think it is because humans are terrified of being deceived and terrified of being punished for being deceived. Fear binds. I hate fear. But sometimes I am subjected to fear. Other times I overcome it. Is this your experience as well? The things I fear today are different than the things I feared 10 years ago - and 20 years ago. There will come an end to all fear in the fulness of time.

Heartsong, feeling prolific today~


p.s. I was overwhelmed with this thought today in a way I have never been before: THERE IS NO SEPARATION

 
Old 10-31-2011, 04:51 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,290,498 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
Why is anyone afraid of the doctrine of UR?

I think it is because humans are terrified of being deceived and terrified of being punished for being deceived. Fear binds. I hate fear. But sometimes I am subjected to fear. Other times I overcome it. Is this your experience as well? The things I fear today are different than the things I feared 10 years ago - and 20 years ago. There will come an end to all fear in the fulness of time.

Heartsong, feeling prolific today~


p.s. I was overwhelmed with this thought today in a way I have never been before: THERE IS NO SEPARATION
A couple of verses came to mind:

"And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?" Jonah 4:11

"There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty. And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both." Luke 6:41-42a


I think Americans in general don't like the idea of receiving something for free. ESPECIALLY receiving free forgiveness. They want people to pay for what they've done. The idea that God could "just forgive you" without you first DOING something to merit it, bothers them. If you think I'm wrong, take a look at any threads on Internet forums that talk about the death penalty. Most Americans think it's right to kill people if they have killed someone. They like for people to PAY.

As such, how do you expect Americans to appreciate the idea of God forgiving people freely??


Blessings,
brian
 
Old 10-31-2011, 05:58 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 10,015,150 times
Reputation: 58210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
Why is anyone afraid of the doctrine of UR?

I think it is because humans are terrified of being deceived and terrified of being punished for being deceived. Fear binds. I hate fear. But sometimes I am subjected to fear. Other times I overcome it. Is this your experience as well? The things I fear today are different than the things I feared 10 years ago - and 20 years ago. There will come an end to all fear in the fulness of time.

Heartsong, feeling prolific today~


p.s. I was overwhelmed with this thought today in a way I have never been before: THERE IS NO SEPARATION
They are afraid because they think it's from the devil. Anything that challenges ET is from the devil in their eyes. And that's so far from the truth. Fear DOES bind, several of us already know this who have shaken the shackles of the fear instilled by what we were taught. Like you, my fears are different today than they were even a year or two ago and I thank UR for that. I have no fear, I'm free to question and doubt whatever I want and I know that if there is God he will still love me in spite of it.

What I say may not carry a whole lot of weight these days, but UR saved me from plunging headlong into atheism. And it's the reason I still want to believe there is a God.
 
Old 10-31-2011, 06:06 AM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,683 posts, read 45,412,919 times
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(a) they think that if people begin embracing UR, this will remove the impetus to 'spread the gospel' because there is nothing to save impenitent sinners from.

(b) a lot of non-religious people as well as Christians scoff at the idea of such a 'feel good religion.' Most do not want to mass murderers of this world to get to heaven.

(c) They are afraid it is a deception, and to believe in UR is to contradict God's Word and call him a liar.

That's my objective analysis.
 
Old 10-31-2011, 06:15 AM
 
21,883 posts, read 16,707,141 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
Why is anyone afraid of the doctrine of UR?

I think it is because humans are terrified of being deceived and terrified of being punished for being deceived. Fear binds. I hate fear. But sometimes I am subjected to fear. Other times I overcome it. Is this your experience as well? The things I fear today are different than the things I feared 10 years ago - and 20 years ago. There will come an end to all fear in the fulness of time.

Heartsong, feeling prolific today~


p.s. I was overwhelmed with this thought today in a way I have never been before: THERE IS NO SEPARATION
Fear has nothing to do with it. Universalism is a lie from Satan. Satan has a strategy to suit every situation. He attempts to keep believers off balance by getting them to worry about losing their salvation. A believer who is off balance because of worry cannot advance spiritually.

But in the case of an unbeliever, Satan tries to convince the gullible either that everyone already is saved, or that everyone eventually will be saved. And it is a lie. Some will buy into the first lie, some will be deceived into believing the second lie. Both are false as no one will be saved unless they believe in Jesus Christ. And in the history of the world, most will not believe, and will therefore spend the eternal future in the lake of fire. The window of opportunity to trust in Christ for salvation closes at the moment of physical death. There is no chance for salvation after death.

Universalism appeals to those who don't want to face the reality that God has no choice but to operate within the framework of His essence. God's love cannot cancel out the demands of His Righteousness and Justice. God's love motivated Him to provide the means of salvation which was accomplished by His Justice. But that same Justice which provides salvation for those who trust in Christ, must leave in condemnation those who reject God's offer of salvation which is based on the work of Christ on the cross. Those who reject what Jesus did on their behalf, reject God's provision of salvation, and must therefore be eternally separated from God.

God can only impute His perfect Righteousness to those who place their faith in Christ. It is only because God imputes His perfect Righteousness, as well as His eternal life, to those who believe in Christ, that they can have an eternal relationship with God. Those who reject Christ do not have God's Perfect Righteousness imputed to them and must therefore stand on their own imperfect righteousness which has no compatability with God's Perfect righteousness. Perfect God demands Perfect righteousness. The unbeliever only has imperfect righteousness and therefore can have no relationship with Perfect God. Because the unbeliever has refused God's way of remedying that situation, he must remain separated from God for all eternity.

Universalism is nothing more than one of Satan's lies which is designed to trip up those who are easily deceived. Designed to appeal to those who want to imagine that God, because He is love, will ignore His Justice. He will not. He cannot.
 
Old 10-31-2011, 06:16 AM
 
Location: Florida
63,078 posts, read 34,359,223 times
Reputation: 10479
People are not any more or less afraid of universalism than of any other false teaching, or atheism.

False teachings need to be exposed, and the truth needs to be told. That is the only reason universalists and other teachers of false message get any attention here. It has nothing to fo with fear.
 
Old 10-31-2011, 06:20 AM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,683 posts, read 45,412,919 times
Reputation: 11862
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Fear has nothing to do with it. Universalism is a lie from Satan. Satan has a strategy to suit every situation. He attempts to keep believers off balance by getting them to worry about losing their salvation. A believer who is off balance because of worry cannot advance spiritually.

But in the case of an unbeliever, Satan tries to convince the gullible either that everyone already is saved, or that everyone eventually will be saved. And it is a lie. Some will buy into the first lie, some will be deceived into believing the second lie. Both are false as no one will be saved unless they believe in Jesus Christ. And in the history of the world, most will not believe, and will therefore spent the eternal future in the lake of fire. The window of opportunity to trust in Christ for salvation closes at the moment of physical death. There is no chance for salvation after death.

Universalism appeals to those who don't want to face the reality that God has no choice but to operate within the framework of His essence. God's love cannot cancel out the demands of His Righteousness and Justice. God's love motivated Him to provide the means of salvation which was accomplished by His Justice. But that same Justice which provides salvation for those who trust in Christ, must leave in condemnation those who reject God's offer of salvation which is based on the work of Christ on the cross. Those who reject what Jesus did on their behalf, reject God's provision of salvation, and must therefore be eternally separated from God.

God can only impute His perfect Righteousness to those who place their faith in Christ. It is only because God imputes His perfect Righteousness, as well as His eternal life, to those who believe in Christ, that they can have an eternal relationship with God. Those who reject Christ do not have God's Perfect Righteousness imputed to them and must therefore stand on their own imperfect righteousness which has no compatability with God's Perfect righteousness. Perfect God demands perfect righteousness. The unbeliever only has imperfect righteousness and therefore can have no relationship with Perfect God. Because the unbeliever has refused God's way of remedying that situation, he must remain separated from God for all eternity.

Universalism is nothing more than one of Satan's lies which is designed to trip up those who are easily deceived. Designed to appeal to those who want to imagine that God, because He is love, will ignore His Justice. He will not. He cannot.
I think a lot of UR people do not deny that some people deserve justice, or that will God has some sort of punishment planned for them, but in their ultimate reality they see it more as an age-long chastising, rather than eternal punishment with no hope.

They do not want people to just go on sinning and still get into heaven, they just want people to have a chance to find their way back to God, like the prodigal son.

It does sound very emotionally appealing, so it's appeal is obvious. Sadly it doesn't seem Biblical, but it would be very nice to think God is merciful enough to offer a way out. Most UR people advocate judgement with mercy, not just judgement with no hope of return. I sometimes wonder the fate of sinners is so final, so hopeless, so agonizingly irreversible. We're talking about someone's eternal destiny here, and for some they simply cannot bring themselves to believe in something so depressing and horrible.

If the Lord desires all to be saved, how is he allowing one of his rebellious angels to steal so many of his precious souls away from Him? If the consequences are so grim, surely the Lord must have compassion enough to have mercy on his own children.

I deeply wish it was so, but a reading of the Bible doesn't make that seem like a great possibility. The best compromise, and the one which seems to ring the truest, is eternal death for the unbeliever.
 
Old 10-31-2011, 06:21 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,763,184 times
Reputation: 1590
Thank all of you for your great and thought-provoking responses.

Brian, you are right about Americans wanting people to pay for their sins and being "in love" with the death penalty. It's such a sad statistic that we hold that in such high regard rather than being ashamed of it - equal to only a few nations such as Iran, Saudi Arabia, and China on that issue!

The death of any man diminished me because we are all One.

Ilene - right on, sister. I will not turn my back on any brother or sister regardless of whether they are having doubts about their faith. There is no reason to do so! Bless you.
 
Old 10-31-2011, 06:21 AM
 
Location: Southwest Arkansas
774 posts, read 651,768 times
Reputation: 831
UR doesn't satisfy some people's sick desire for revenge
what greater revenge than seeing your enemies suffer without end?

fundamentals can hide behind "justice" but there's nothing just about torture

ET on the other only causes fear, if anyone is honest with themselves they'd admit ET only forces them to serve God out of fear not out of love which was NEVER part of God's plan, I know this from personal experience. I came to God out of fear but thankfully God took off the blinders and now I'm free from the fundamental Moderator cut: bashing

Last edited by june 7th; 11-02-2011 at 02:02 PM..
 
Old 10-31-2011, 06:26 AM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,683 posts, read 45,412,919 times
Reputation: 11862
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
A couple of verses came to mind:

"And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?" Jonah 4:11

"There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty. And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both." Luke 6:41-42a


I think Americans in general don't like the idea of receiving something for free. ESPECIALLY receiving free forgiveness. They want people to pay for what they've done. The idea that God could "just forgive you" without you first DOING something to merit it, bothers them. If you think I'm wrong, take a look at any threads on Internet forums that talk about the death penalty. Most Americans think it's right to kill people if they have killed someone. They like for people to PAY.

As such, how do you expect Americans to appreciate the idea of God forgiving people freely??


Blessings,
brian
It's not just Americans. People around the world have a spirit of vengeance. It's symptomatic of souls in pain...their holes, their wounds, need to be filled and tended with love and forgiveness, not more reciprocal pain. Most people are blind to the ultimate nature of love, life and the universe. They've yet to experience the tremendous liberation of pure, unconditional, unadulterated LOVE!
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