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Well, I believe in one of his posts Eusebius gave the many different ways the word aion (eon) and it's derivatives have been translated and twice it was NEVER, and I believe this is one of those times. They did have to twist some verses, in my opinion, to come to the interpretations they did. And why did it say IN DANGER of eternal damnation IF blasphemy is NEVER forgiven? Wouldn't it be absolute damnation and not in danger? Is this sort of like forever and ever from eon of the eons? changing the of into and because otherwise people might question the message of the prevailing church?
For serious Christians, the use of logic to deny clear Biblical teachings is a path to heresy and hell. Logic might also say, the dead cannot be raised, or the man on the cross or the baby in the manger cannot be God Almighty Logic and reason must be put asside so that we can be taught by God.
As God says.
Isa 55:8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,"declares the LORD.
Isa 55:9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts
For serious Christians, the use of logic to deny clear Biblical teachings is a path to heresy and hell. Logic might also say, the dead cannot be raised, or the man on the cross or the baby in the manger cannot be God Almighty Logic and reason must be put asside so that we can be taught by God.
As God says. Isa 55:8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,"declares the LORD. Isa 55:9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts
Here are God's thoughts.
Any "hell" anyone will experience will be kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement).
Sooner or later God will have (wants if you like) all men to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4)
It is God’s “pleasure” that all mankind be saved.
And “God is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will” (Ephesians 1:11).
Change it to read “in accord with the counsel of what He wants if you like.
Because God says
"My counsel shall stand. I will do all my pleasure
(the saving of all mankind is part of the pleasure that God wants)
Yea I have spoken it.
I will also bring it to pass.
I have purposed it.
I will also do it."
Isaiah 46:10,11
Job 23:13 “But he stands alone, and who can oppose Him? He does whatever he pleases.
(the saving of all mankind is part of what He wants that pleases Him).
Isaiah 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
(the saving of all mankind is part of all of which God desires or wants)
So we see God does all His pleasure, He does whatever He pleases, and His word accomplishes that which He desires.
His pleasure, that which He desires and pleases Him is what He wants.
His will = What He wants
What does He want?
THE SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND
Why will it happen? Because God Himself will see to it that it gets done.
Any cooperation towards our salvation is the result, not the cause of God laying hold on us by His saving grace and causing Jesus to be "choice" in our heart, just like it was in the case of Lydia and Saul of Tarsus.
The opinions of exactly how God will achieve universal salvation may differ from UR to UR just like, as Bright Hope pointed out, the opinions of ETers also vary from person to person about what the Bible teaches about salvation.
"I discovered there are plain arguments from reason and Scripture"
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Moderator cut: orphaned
An appropriate snippet from MISCELLANEOUS MAXIMS AND THOUGHTS – William Matthews (eighteenth century)
“In my childhood I found it impossible to fix my belief in the common notion of endless torments.
I discovered there are plain arguments from reason and Scripture against that presumptuous doctrine of endless punishment, and I am now cheered with the rational, Scriptural, and as I think, glorious doctrine of the punishment of Divine justice being eventually subservient to a universal purification and fitness for heavenly habitations.”
Here is a writer who appeals to both logic, and scripture
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarletWren
Logic is bad?!?! That does not compute. I wonder what Spock would say about that? "That is not logical!"??? lol
Here is a writer who appeals to both logic, and scripture.
THOUGHTS ON THE DIVINE GOODNESS RELATIVE TO THE GOVERNMENT OF MORAL AGENTS PARTICULARLY DISPLAYED IN FUTURE REWARDS AND PUNISHMENTS – FERDINAND OLIVER PETITPIERRE
“I am assured that goodness is the foundation, and happiness is the end of all the ways of God, to myself and every creature. Hope is the anchor of my soul, sure and steadfast; for though ‘His ways should be in the deep and His paths in the mighty waters;’ though I should experience every external evil; no affliction shall shake my confidence. Never will I dishonor by a moment’s distrust, a Being Who has in mercy commanded me to ‘cast all my care upon Him;’ because ‘He careth for me.’
I have in the whole of this treatise, in establishing the doctrine of perfect goodness, and following it in its consequences; constantly combated such erroneous opinions as represent the Creator of the human race as a Being Whose power will be employed in inflicting never ending torments on a portion of His creatures, and I have established the non-eternity of future torments.”
To the OP. IMHO, you need to start reading the simple bear words of scripture, and not look for alternate meanings to your words to fit a doctrine you imagine. Your argument falls apart very quickly if you just do a word search on the word in English "eternal". Most of the New Testament references on on the Gospel side of the equation. The New Testament refers to eternal salvation, eternal life, the eternal Spirit, the eternal inheritance, and various other things that refer to God or the salvation He offers through faith in Jesus Christ. I checked several of these and they all use the same Greek word, "aiwnon". Now if you are going to argue that punishment is not eternal, then someone could also, God is not eternal nor is His gift of eternal life.
Sorry, but your argument holds absolutely no water.
Sad, but true. The Gospel is not hard to understand, but alternate religions find their own beliefs in stark conflict with the message in the Bible, so they have to come up with that kind of nonsense by spinning translations. The word 'eternal' is a good example, because they argue there is no such thing as eternal torment, so they have to deny Jesus's promise of eternal life in the process. After all, the same word is used to talk about eternal life 77 times in New Testament. OK, so according to new age universalists there is no eternal life for believers. Once you start defending a lie, it opens a can of worms, and you find yourself trying to explain away all kinds of things brought up by the lie.
it really does come down to which Greek scholars you choose to rely on
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
Sad, but true. The Gospel is not hard to understand, but alternate religions find their own beliefs in stark conflict with the message in the Bible, so they have to come up with that kind of nonsense by spinning translations. The word 'eternal' is a good example, because they argue there is no such thing as eternal torment, so they have to deny Jesus's promise of eternal life in the process. After all, the same word is used to talk about eternal life 77 times in New Testament. OK, so according to new age universalists there is no eternal life for believers. Once you start defending a lie, it opens a can of worms, and you find yourself trying to explain away all kinds of things brought up by the lie.
Whether ETers are willing to admit it or not, it really does come down to which Greek scholars you choose to rely on.
That is why the ET/UR debate will nearly always be hopelessly deadlocked in a stalemate.
My Greek scholars are Louis Abbott and the many Greek scholars he quotes in chapters three and twelve.
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS An Analytical Study of Words
If you think it glorifies God more to let some of His creatures suffer forever, or annihilate them, then you keep believing that.
But if you think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need which is a change in their stubborn will, then know that there is plenty of evidence in the Bible that is exactly what God is like.
There is eternal life for believers, but not because of the use of aionios
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
according to universalists there is no eternal life for believers.
There is eternal life for believers, but not because of the use of aionios.
!Cor. 15 says we put on immortality.
That is our promise of eternal life.
I agree with legoman who said
"In John 3:16 Jesus promises eonian life (greek: aionios zoe), which quite literally means something of which the horizon/end-point is not in view, but can more generally have the meaning of "pertaining to an age or ages" ie. age-abiding.
Do not confuse this with the idea of immortality - which is also a promise as shown by Paul in 1 Cor 15 - this is why all will be alive truly forever. Not because of eonian life, but because immortality is granted.
It has caused much confusion and travesty due to the way modern Christian tradition has munged the terms "eternal life" and "immortality".
There are many examples where the word eon and its hebrew counter-part olam simply cannot mean literally "eternal" or "forever", yet the meaning is forced there when it is not warranted.
You can study this for yourself if you wish to honestly understand.
Christian Universalism understands what immortality is and what it means to put it on as scripture defines it. That does not change simply because Jesus was talking about an undetermined period of time."
An appropriate snippet from CHRIST TRIUMPHANT – THOMAS ALLIN
"It is true that aionios may be applied as an epithet to things that are endless, but the idea of endlessness in all such cases comes not from the epithet, but only because it is inherent in the object to which the epithet is applied, as in the case of God.
‘This is life eternal’ should be ‘the life of the ages,’ i.e. peculiar to those ages in which the scheme of salvation is being worked out. The ‘eternal covenant’ is the ‘covenant of the ages,’ the covenant peculiar to the ages of redemption. The ‘eternal purpose’ is really the purpose of ‘the ages,’ i.e. developed and worked out in ‘the ages.’
We who teach the larger hope believe that not in this brief life only, but through future ages, Christ’s work shall go on till the last straying sheep shall have been found by the Good Shepherd. Then, at the expiry of these ages ‘cometh the end’ when Christ shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, and God shall be All in all (1Cor. 15:28)."
also
THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – ANDREW JUKES
“It is argued that whatever be the meaning of the word aionios in the case of the lost, the same must be its meaning in the case of the saved; and our certainty of never-ending bliss for penitent believers is gone if the word bears not the same signification in the case of the impenitent and unbelieving. But the truth is that this word describes not the quantity or duration, but the quality of that which it is predicated.
The word which in Matt. 25:46 we translate punishment, in its primary sense means ‘pruning’ and is always used for corrective discipline which is for the improvement of him who suffers it. Even those who hold the common view of the endlessness of punishment are obliged to confess this; and this of itself proves that their doctrine is untenable; for any punishment, be it for a longer or shorter time would not be corrective discipline, but quite another thing if it left those who were so corrected unimproved and lost forever. But from the fall till now the changeless way of the Lord is to make even the curse a blessing.”
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God's thoughts
"I discovered there are plain arguments from reason and Scripture"
