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Old 11-12-2011, 11:51 AM
 
Location: US
10,112 posts, read 3,787,997 times
Reputation: 479
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
Good Post!

I'm with you. We are all born into a sinful environment, some of us worse than others. The old saying, "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree" comes to mind. Our behavior is learned. Most children pretty much follow in the footsteps of their families. Once in a great while, a kid will rise above his environment. Who knows why? Maybe like you said, maybe a genetic throwback or something.

Funny you should mention "seven" years old. I was just thinking about that last night when I couldn't sleep. When exactly does a child begin to really understand right from wrong? I tried to think back to when I was a little child. I don't think I thought anything I did was sin until I was taught that certain behaviors were sin. I was raised catholic, and it was at about seven years old, I made my first communion. I'm thinking it was then that I was introduced to the concept of sin. Prior to that, I was only disobeying my parents, but I never considered anything I did to be sin. So I think you might be right, but I think it's different for each individual. Anyway, just thinking out loud. Good post. Thanks.

Katie
It does not matter what you consider to be sin, It is Hawyaw...So, disobeying your parents was sin, rebelion....

 
Old 11-12-2011, 11:55 AM
 
Location: US
10,112 posts, read 3,787,997 times
Reputation: 479
[quote=katiemygirl;21685128]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyber Munchkin View Post

Hi Cyber,

Sorry I misunderstood your position.

I skimmed through what you just now wrote very quickly. I appreciate your opinion. Most of the scriptures you posted in support of total depravity, I have already addressed in other posts. You'd have to go back through the thread if you are interested in reading my thoughts on the subject.

I will spend more time rereading your post. I'll print it out because reading from the computer screen is rough on the eyes.

One thing I totally agree with you on. Whether or not you believe that we inherit Adam's sin or not does effect our walk with God. That is the reason I began the thread. I wanted to see both sides of the issue, even though I currently do not believe we inherit Adam's sin. I think it is a great topic for discussion, and I appreciate people who can discuss it respectfully.

I will get back to you tomorrow after I have reread your post. I don't know if I'll have time to read the article. I'm not much one for reading articles unless they present both sides of an issue. I like seeing the pros and cons. That's why I like the forum so much.

I am wondering how many of calvin's points you ascribe to? All five? Two? Which ones?

Thanks again for your post.

Katie
If you are not much one for reading articles then you are not much for reading the bible and you allow others to tell you what it means and only accept it if it fits with what you want to believe...
 
Old 11-12-2011, 12:00 PM
 
358 posts, read 161,598 times
Reputation: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
Good Morning JAA,

Let me say how much I appreciate the time you take with your posts. I am grateful for someone such as yourself, who is willing to discuss this topic in a non-personal, non-confrontational manner. Even though we disagree, I respect your sincerity and have no doubt that you love the Lord every bit as much as I do.

I don't know how much of your post I can respond to. It was a long one. I have a lot to say about 1 Corinthians 2:14, so I'm not sure how much of the rest of your post I can address.

Let me start by answering your very last question above. "If our original ("natural") heart were OK, then why would He have had to give us a new one?" The answer is very simple. He had to give us a new heart because we sinned.

JAA, you continue to say that we inherit Adam's sin. The Bible does not say this anywhere. If it does, then please provide the scripture. We inherit the consequences of Adam's sin, not the sin.

Ez. 18:20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.

We are created in the image of God. We are His offspring, therefore, we cannot be born with sin. We are told that the one who sins will die, and that we will not share the guilt of the parent anymore than we will share in their righteousness.

"6 “Whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed;
for in the image of God has God made mankind.

1 Corinthians 11:7 "For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man.

James 3:9 "With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God;

Will you deny that we are created in God's image?

1 Corinthians 2:14 "Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged"

This does not mean that unregenerated people cannot understand spiritual things until God, in some independent action, opens their hearts, or regenerates them.

Anyone who has common sense and can read will be able to explain Genesis 1:1 as well as most christians can. If regenerated people can understand every spiritual thing, then there should be 100% agreement on all scriptures by christians, and we know this is not the case.

If unregenerated people cannot understand spiritual things, and are totally depraved, then how do you account for the goodness of Cornelius, or anyone for that matter? How do we account for all the good things non-christians do? How could Gentiles "do by nature the things contained in the Law?" (Romans 2:14) Can you answer these questions for me?

What about the first conversion case in Acts 2? All the Jews were totally incapable of listening to the Spirit through Peter according to Calvin. Yet Peter preached and "they heard this" (Acts 2:37) and they cried "what shall we do?

Have they already been regenerated, made alive in Christ, had their sins forgiven? How is it that they were able to HEAR? This is a question that must be answered by anyone who ascribes to calvinism. If they've already been regenerated, then they have already received the gift of the Holy Spirit. Yet, hear what Peter says:

38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

Why would people who have already been regenerated be told to REPENT? Repent of what? If they've been regenerated already, they have no sins to repent of.

SAVE YOURSELVES! Why tell these people to save themselves if they've aleady been regenerated?

The bottom line JAA is Peter preached and THEY HEARD THIS AND ASKED WHAT SHALL WE DO? THEY HEARD AND WERE PIERCED TO THE HEART!

HOW IS IT THEY WERE ABLE TO HEAR?

I will try to answer the rest of your post later.

Katie
Hi, Katie,

As far as 1 Corinthians 2:14, I really do feel that it is speaking of unregenerate individuals not being able to understand or "receive" Gospel truth.

I do believe that unregenerate people can understand some of the content of what is found in Scripture...historical accounts, and the like. What they cannot receive is that truth which is unto salvation. The Gospel message remains fooloishness to the unregenerate. Some may believe that it is true, but eventually turn away from it because they cannot embrace it with faith unto salvation (as this faith, according to Eph 2:8, is "the gift of God").

God does maintain a certain order within His universe. He allows the milk of human kindness to exist. But this is not necessarily the fruit of salvation.

As far as the examples you gave of those who heard and believed...we need to be careful not to confuse regeneration with conversion. One must be regenerated before he can come to faith in Christ. But the manifestation of his regeneration will be seen in his conversion. When we come to that place when, upon hearing the Gospel, we become consciously aware of our sins, and consequently of our need of salvation, that subsequent profession of faith is seen as our conversion.

Even the promise of salvation is shown in Scripture to agree with this principle. Kindly note:

Titus 1:1-3
2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began, 3 but has in due time manifested His word through preaching, which was committed to me according to the commandment of God our Savior;

1 Peter 1:20
20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

So, it was indeed established before the world began, but it was made manifest at the appropriate time. Such is the case of our salvation. It had been established beforehand, but is made manifest "in due season".

Therefore it is only the regenerate individual who will repent and believe the gospel. They are the ones who, indeed, have "ears to hear".

It is only in the fact that God, alone, saves (in every sense of our salvation) that I can have confidence. It stands to reason that Jesus tells us in John 10:27-30:

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

30 I and my Father are one.

It is only because salvation is entirely God's work that we could never lose it. As one poster previously said, "We did nothing to get it, we can do nothing to lose it".

As far as continuing in the things of the Lord...the nature of salvation is such that we, indeed, will continue in these things. It will simply be an evidence that we truly have become saved.

The only people who make "decisions" for Christ and then fall away are those who have tried to do it by themselves, without the involvement of God on their behalf, meaning that they were never actually saved.

May God continue to reveal His truth to us through His precious Word.

Last edited by JAA2310; 11-12-2011 at 12:28 PM..
 
Old 11-12-2011, 12:05 PM
 
Location: US
10,112 posts, read 3,787,997 times
Reputation: 479
Quote:
Originally Posted by JAA2310 View Post
Hi, Katie,

As far as 1 Corinthians 2:14, I really do feel that it is speaking of unregenerate individuals not being able to understand or "receive" Gospel truth.

I do believe that unregenerate people can understand some of the content of what is found in Scripture...historical accounts, and the like. What they cannot receive is that truth which is unto salvation. The Gospel message remains fooloishness to the unregenerate. Some may believe that it is true, but eventually turn away from it because they cannot embrace it with faith unto salvation (as this faith, according to Eph 2:8, is "the gift of God").

God does maintain a certain order within His universe. He allows the milk of human kindness to exist. But this is not necessarily the fruit of salvation.

As far as the examples you gave of those who heard and believed...we need to be careful not to confuse regeneration with conversion. One must be regenerated before He can come to faith in Christ. But the manifestation of his regeneration will be seen in his conversion. When we come to that place when, upon hearing the Gospel, we become consciously aware of our sins, and consequently of our need of salvation, that subsequent profession of faith is seen as our conversion.

Even the promise of salvation is shown in Scripture to agree with this principle. Kindly note:

Titus 1:1-3
2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began, 3 but has in due time manifested His word through preaching, which was committed to me according to the commandment of God our Savior;

1 Peter 1:20
20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

So, it was indeed established before the world began, but it was made manifest at the appropriate time. Such is the case of our salvation. It had been established beforehand, but is made manifest "in due season".

Therefore it is only the regenerate individual who will repent and believe the gospel. They are the ones who, indeed, have "ears to hear".

It is only in the fact that God, alone, saves (in every sense of our salvation) that I can have confidence. It stands to reason that Jesus tells us in John 10:27-30:

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

30 I and my Father are one.

It is only because salvation is entirely God's work that we could never lose it. As one poster previously said, "We did nothing to get it, we can do nothing to lose it".

As far as continuing in the things of the Lord...the nature of salvation is such that we, indeed, will continue in these things. It will simply be an evidence that we truly have become saved.

The only people who make "decisions" for Christ and then fall away are those who have tried to do it by themselves, without the involvement of God on their behalf, meaning that they were never actually saved.

May God continue to reveal His truth to us through His precious Word.
This is the way i see it...
 
Old 11-12-2011, 12:41 PM
 
9,418 posts, read 4,902,424 times
Reputation: 1026
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
Compare Psalm 51:5 with Psalm 22:9-10

Psalm 51:5 "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me." (NKJV)

Psalm 22:9-10 9But You are He who took Me out of the womb; You made Me trust while on My mother’s breasts.10 I was cast upon You from birth. From My mother’s womb You have been My God. (NKJV)

So which is it Twin? Was David trusting in God at birth or was he a sinner at birth? The two are not compatible ideas.

Psalm 51:5 is simply saying that David was born into a sinful world, and it was in his mother's sin that he was conceived. She was the sinner, not David. This explanation is compatible with Psalm 22. Your explanation is in direct conflict with Psalm 22.

Neither Romans 5:12 or Romans 6:23 confirm that we inherit Adam's sin. Psalm 51:5 says no such thing, except in your mind and in the minds of other calvinists.

Twin, your warn others not to add to God's word, but you turn right around and do exactly that. You draw a false conclusion with Romans 5:12, Romans 6:23, and Psalm 51:5. None of these verses say that we inherit Adam's sin, and neither should you be saying it.

Katie
Calvinism claims since God predestines people to heaven, then logic says that he then predestines the balance (or some) to hell.

Sorry Kate... never said such thing.
I have always stated that God predestines the believer to heaven but scriptures does not teach that God predestines people to hell.

Why does it have to be either or when it comes to Psalm 51:5 with Psalm 22:9-10?
David was admitting both were true ... sinful from conception Psalm 51:5 and God was his God from the womb Psalm 22:9-10.
 
Old 11-12-2011, 12:54 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 1,332,377 times
Reputation: 320
Quote:
Originally Posted by JAA2310 View Post
Hi, Katie,

As far as 1 Corinthians 2:14, I really do feel that it is speaking of unregenerate individuals not being able to understand or "receive" Gospel truth.

I do believe that unregenerate people can understand some of the content of what is found in Scripture...historical accounts, and the like. What they cannot receive is that truth which is unto salvation. The Gospel message remains fooloishness to the unregenerate. Some may believe that it is true, but eventually turn away from it because they cannot embrace it with faith unto salvation (as this faith, according to Eph 2:8, is "the gift of God").

God does maintain a certain order within His universe. He allows the milk of human kindness to exist. But this is not necessarily the fruit of salvation.

As far as the examples you gave of those who heard and believed...we need to be careful not to confuse regeneration with conversion. One must be regenerated before he can come to faith in Christ. But the manifestation of his regeneration will be seen in his conversion. When we come to that place when, upon hearing the Gospel, we become consciously aware of our sins, and consequently of our need of salvation, that subsequent profession of faith is seen as our conversion.

Even the promise of salvation is shown in Scripture to agree with this principle. Kindly note:

Titus 1:1-3
2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began, 3 but has in due time manifested His word through preaching, which was committed to me according to the commandment of God our Savior;

1 Peter 1:20
20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

So, it was indeed established before the world began, but it was made manifest at the appropriate time. Such is the case of our salvation. It had been established beforehand, but is made manifest "in due season".

Therefore it is only the regenerate individual who will repent and believe the gospel. They are the ones who, indeed, have "ears to hear".

It is only in the fact that God, alone, saves (in every sense of our salvation) that I can have confidence. It stands to reason that Jesus tells us in John 10:27-30:

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

30 I and my Father are one.

It is only because salvation is entirely God's work that we could never lose it. As one poster previously said, "We did nothing to get it, we can do nothing to lose it".

As far as continuing in the things of the Lord...the nature of salvation is such that we, indeed, will continue in these things. It will simply be an evidence that we truly have become saved.

The only people who make "decisions" for Christ and then fall away are those who have tried to do it by themselves, without the involvement of God on their behalf, meaning that they were never actually saved.

May God continue to reveal His truth to us through His precious Word.
Agreed, excellent presentation of the scriptures...
 
Old 11-12-2011, 12:58 PM
 
358 posts, read 161,598 times
Reputation: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Agreed, excellent presentation of the scriptures...
Praise God. Thanks.
 
Old 11-12-2011, 01:00 PM
 
358 posts, read 161,598 times
Reputation: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
This is the way i see it...
I really feel it makes biblical sense.
 
Old 11-12-2011, 01:00 PM
 
1,263 posts, read 498,087 times
Reputation: 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by JAA2310 View Post
Hi, Katie,

As far as 1 Corinthians 2:14, I really do feel that it is speaking of unregenerate individuals not being able to understand or "receive" Gospel truth.

I do believe that unregenerate people can understand some of the content of what is found in Scripture...historical accounts, and the like. What they cannot receive is that truth which is unto salvation. The Gospel message remains fooloishness to the unregenerate. Some may believe that it is true, but eventually turn away from it because they cannot embrace it with faith unto salvation (as this faith, according to Eph 2:8, is "the gift of God").

God does maintain a certain order within His universe. He allows the milk of human kindness to exist. But this is not necessarily the fruit of salvation.

As far as the examples you gave of those who heard and believed...we need to be careful not to confuse regeneration with conversion. One must be regenerated before He can come to faith in Christ. But the manifestation of his regeneration will be seen in his conversion. When we come to that place when, upon hearing the Gospel, we become consciously aware of our sins, and consequently of our need of salvation, that subsequent profession of faith is seen as our conversion.

Even the promise of salvation is shown in Scripture to agree with this principle. Kindly note:

Titus 1:1-3
2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began, 3 but has in due time manifested His word through preaching, which was committed to me according to the commandment of God our Savior;

1 Peter 1:20
20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

So, it was indeed established before the world began, but it was made manifest at the appropriate time. Such is the case of our salvation. It had been established beforehand, but is made manifest "in due season".

Therefore it is only the regenerate individual who will repent and believe the gospel. They are the ones who, indeed, have "ears to hear".

It is only in the fact that God, alone, saves (in every sense of our salvation) that I can have confidence. It stands to reason that Jesus tells us in John 10:27-30:

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

30 I and my Father are one.

It is only because salvation is entirely God's work that we could never lose it. As one poster previously said, "We did nothing to get it, we can do nothing to lose it".

As far as continuing in the things of the Lord...the nature of salvation is such that we, indeed, will continue in these things. It will simply be an evidence that we truly have become saved.

The only people who make "decisions" for Christ and then fall away are those who have tried to do it by themselves, without the involvement of God on their behalf, meaning that they were never actually saved.

May God continue to reveal His truth to us through His precious Word.

I appreciate your 'gentleness' in trying to teach about God. You are not condescending nor do you 'push' your beliefs.

I am reminded that Jesus Himself had to open the minds of His disciples so they could understand Scripture...without His doing, they could not understand. I do believe that it is only God who can open our minds, ears and eyes to understanding. Jesus made the blind man see, the deaf man hear. Jesus performed those miracles to show that spiritually we are all blind and deaf and only by Him can we have spiritual understanding and restoration.

36While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”
37They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”
40When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. 41And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” 42They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43and he took it and ate it in their presence.
44He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
45Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46He told them, “This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48You are witnesses of these things. 49I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”
 
Old 11-12-2011, 01:07 PM
 
2,637 posts, read 1,017,472 times
Reputation: 191
[quote=JAA2310;21686062

Therefore it is only the regenerate individual who will repent and believe the gospel. They are the ones who, indeed, have "ears to hear".
[/QUOTE]

How can you possibly believe that regeneration occurs before faith, repentance, baptism and overall conversion? How is it possible to be regenerated (renewed) by the Holy Spirit and not be converted (born again)? This doesn't even make sense.

The washing of regeneration IS conversion. Being born again IS being regenerated. They are not separate events. What scripture gives you this idea that you get regenerated first and converted later?

You are telling me that the 3000 Jews who were converted on the day of Pentecost were regenerated before they were born again? That is simply ridiculous!

I have to tell you JAA, I have never heard such a thing. You can't really believe that. Am I misunderstanding?

Katie
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