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Are We Born Totally Depraved And Incapable Of Choosing God?
Calvinism, in effect, says that man is a robot. We have no choice in anything. We became sinners because someone else sinned, before we had anything at all to say or do about it. Then we are saved or lost unconditionally, and there is nothing we can say or do about that either! The doctrine totally eliminates man's free moral agency, power to choose, and individual moral responsibility!
According to scripture, babies are born innocent.
Ezekiel 18:20 - The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Ecclesiastes 7:29 - "Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions."
Hebrews 2:17 17Wherefore in all things it behooved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Luke 3:38; Galatians 4:4 - He was a descendant of Adam, born of woman.
If we inherit sin from Adam, then Jesus must have inherited it since he was a descendant of Adam and was LIKE US IN ALL THINGS. But He did not inherit it. Therefore we do not inherit it. Guilt is not inherited.
"And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." Matt. 18:3
"But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 19:14
Mark 10:16 says: "And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them." These were innocent little children and not sinners under the wrath of God. And Jesus did not say that they were sinners and enemies of God, but he said, "of such is the kingdom of God."
1 Corinthians 11:7 "Man is the image and glory of God."
James 3:9 "Men are made after the similitude of God."
Acts 17:24-29 The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being. As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’
Revelation 22:16 "I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."
Ecclesiastes 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.
This not only affirms that God has created man, but also affirms that man is created upright. If man is created upright, he cannot be born a sinner; if man is born a sinner, he cannot be created upright. Either one or the other may be true, but they cannot both be true for the two are contradictories.
When God says he has created us "in his image," and has given us "life and breath and all things," are we to understand that he created us as sinners? When he says, "We are his offspring," are we to understand that his offspring are born sinners? And when Jesus said, "I am the root and the offspring of David," are we to understand that David sprang forth from the root Christ Jesus with a sinful nature? Or, are we to understand that Jesus, as the offspring of David, was born with a sinful nature? We know that Jesus did not create David a sinner, and we know that Jesus was not born a sinner as the offspring of David--which would have to be true if the doctrine that men are born sinners were true. The doctrine that men are born sinners is false!
Total depravity says that man is so corrupt that he cannot choose between good and evil, and he cannot choose whether or not to obey the conditions of the gospel. This is not what the Bible teaches. God has made salvation available to everybody.
2 Peter 3:9 - God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
1 Timothy 2:4 - God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 2:6 - Jesus gave Himself a ransom for all.
Hebrews 2:9 - Jesus tasted death for everyone.
Titus 2:11 - The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.
1 John 2:2 - Jesus is the propitiation, not for our sins only, but also for the whole world.
John 3:16 - God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Romans 2:11; Acts 10:34,35 - God is no respecter of persons.
If man has no control in the matter, then everyone would have to be saved. But we know many people will not be saved (Matt. 7:13, 14), so it follows that man has the power to determine whether he will or will not accept salvation. Salvation is conditional.
Hebrews 4:15 - Jesus was tempted in all points like we are. He was a free moral agent but did not sin because He always chose to do right. Either we have the same power to choose or else Jesus was not tempted "in all points" like we are. If we have a totally depraved nature so we can never choose to do right, but He did not have that nature, then His temptation was not at all like ours!
We are all incapable of choosing God.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Before we are ever Spiritually minded we are carnal minded. Here is the part that people don't get. That if I choose God then while I might be doing the choosing that CHOICE and the power/motivation to make that choice is from God. More specifically it is copyrighted by Jesus Christ. So if I choose God it is not I choosing God but Christ in me making the Choice for me.
If I should say it is MY Choice to do such a good work then I have ROBBED my Lord of His due Glory.
Any GOOD thing we do has a copyright on it. Remember that. We cannot do ANYTHING Good. Even though we do a good thing it is now our work to OWN but His.
So when I make a GOOD Choice it is not me that has done so but Him in me that has done so.
Where in the Letters does it show anyone 'choosing' to follow Jeshua?...
Can you tell me when they were regenerated in this conversion story?
Acts 2
36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”
37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.” 40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
You do nothing but spew forth rhetoric with no scriptural backup. How about proof for all these claims you make!
Katie
It IS in the Scriptures, Katie...It took a preacher two years to get me to read the Scriptures for myself with logic and reason instead of relying on what others say the Scriptures mean...I argued with him according to what I was taught form my Pentacostal conditioning...But, Logic and reason won out...I learned how to balance the equation of The Scriptures...
Those who are predestined are those who are "in Christ." God knew who the predestined would be before the world was formed, but He did not choose individuals for heaven or eternal damnation. He gave man the freedom to choose or reject Him.
Katie I agree with this, but with a bit of a twist.
Predestination is not an individual thing, that is to say it does not have to do with you or I as individuals.
In other words God did not know what individuals were going to be predestined to life before the world was formed. What He foreknew was that He would have a CHURCH, a many membered body, made up of individuals.
It is NOT the individuals that are predestined it is the CHURCH, the many memebered body that is predestined.
Then it is a works based Salvation...Wow!...I never knew...
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Before we are ever Spiritually minded we are carnal minded. Here is the part that people don't get. That if I choose God then while I might be doing the choosing that CHOICE and the power/motivation to make that choice is from God. More specifically it is copyrighted by Jesus Christ. So if I choose God it is not I choosing God but Christ in me making the Choice for me.
If I should say it is MY Choice to do such a good work then I have ROBBED my Lord of His due Glory.
Any GOOD thing we do has a copyright on it. Remember that. We cannot do ANYTHING Good. Even though we do a good thing it is now our work to OWN but His.
So when I make a GOOD Choice it is not me that has done so but Him in me that has done so.
Where does Romans 8:7 teach that we are totally incapable of choosing God? Where does it say we have no choice between the desires of the flesh and the desires of the Spirit?
5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
I agree with you 100%. It is the church, the collective body, who are predestined. I think that God does know who those are who will choose Him. Afterall, God knows everything. But you know what? If that's the only point we disagree on, I am happy.
We both believe babies are innocent. We both believe that we have the free will to accept or reject God's gift of salvation. We both believe that those who are predestined are those who are "in Christ," the saved, the church. We both believe that one can lose salvation, and one can repent and turn back to God. That's a lot of we both believe's
To that I say AMEN!!!
Katie
Why did Hawyaw predestinate them?...And what were the reasons He did?...
I agree with you 100%. It is the church, the collective body, who are predestined. I think that God does know who those are who will choose Him. Afterall, God knows everything. But you know what? If that's the only point we disagree on, I am happy.
We both believe babies are innocent. We both believe that we have the free will to accept or reject God's gift of salvation. We both believe that those who are predestined are those who are "in Christ," the saved, the church. We both believe that one can lose salvation, and one can repent and turn back to God. That's a lot of we both believe's
To that I say AMEN!!!
Katie
So, If Hawyaw KNEW who would choose Him and therefore Predestinated them...Then He also KNEW who would reject Him, correct?...
Where does Romans 8:7 teach that we are totally incapable of choosing God? Where does it say we have no choice between the desires of the flesh and the desires of the Spirit?
5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
Katie
Katie, Jesus said the following:
Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Now consider for a moment, surely Jesus didn't come along and bend the disciples arms behind their backs and cause them to choose Him. But through their experiences in life and through His message to them, God had given them over to be persuaded by Jesus. That persuaded spirit that was in them was put their by God. So that their choosing Him was God's work, not their own.
Please provide a scripture that says we inherit Adam's sin.
It takes more than one scripture:
Genesis 2:17 "for when you eat of it you will surely die.”
Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death"
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned
Psalm 51:5
Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl
Please provide a scripture that says God chooses some for salvation and other for eternal destruction.
Katie
again there is more than just one verse:
God chooses some for salvation
Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Romans 8:30
And those he predestined,he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
notice how many "he's there is vs. no mention of "we" ( for those who believe in human doing something to contribute to salvation )
Ephesians 1:5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
Ephesians 1:11
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,
Ephesians 1:4
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.
What verse that say God chooses some for eternal destruction.
A: there is none.
Only human reason concludes that if God presdestines to salvation then the other also occures.
Genesis 2:17 "for when you eat of it you will surely die.”
Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death"
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned
Psalm 51:5
Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
again there is more than just one verse:
God chooses some for salvation
Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Romans 8:30
And those he predestined,he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
notice how many "he's there is vs. no mention of "we" ( for those who believe in human doing something to contribute to salvation )
Ephesians 1:5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
Ephesians 1:11
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,
Ephesians 1:4
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.
What verse that say God chooses some for eternal destruction.
A: there is none.
Only human reason concludes that if God presdestines to salvation then the other also occures.
Such human conclusion is going against this:
“Do not gobeyondwhatiswritten.” 1 Corinthians 4:6
For me personally, I did not understand what God was telling us here (what your post is stating).... until I was able to reconcile Acts 2:38 with all the other verses concerning baptism. Baptism does NOT save us. We are saved only by His Holy Spirit. We do not receive the Holy Spirit when someone baptizes us. GOD gives The Holy Spirit to us, not man.
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