U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 07-29-2013, 10:33 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,588,203 times
Reputation: 1584

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Is it better to have freewill and go to hell, or a robot and go to heaven for eternity?

Considering how many angels rejoice at our salvation (it's probably telling us something of the importance of getting to heaven), I think I'd choose being the robot.

Peace.
brian
Hi Brian - long time no "communing with you". I just wanted to tell you there is a church just down the road who recently changed their sign - it now reads: 'Two Choices - Heaven or Hell - Pick One". I thought it was a real eye roller.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 07-29-2013, 10:58 AM
 
Location: The Mid South
305 posts, read 388,884 times
Reputation: 236
Default The question is unanswerable !

This past June the SBC met for their annual convention; according to a newspaper report the big discussion this year was about how much free will the believer and for that matter all of the human race has. So here is this; America's largest denomination with dozens of seminaries and hundreds of scholars and still they can't settle the question this thread asks.
Part of it lies in our concept of the old english word [sovereign] we think of that as someone who has total and ultimate power and control. In fact no king ever had total control, not over their own passions, not over their own kin and not over other nations and kings.
I have come, very slowly, to think that God does not have total control in this dispensation of time. If He did then we would have to bring him to the court of heaven and charge him with the awful destructive crimes against nature and against mankind.
Crimes that we bring fellow humans to court and to justice for all the time.
Perhaps another question needs to be asked. The one asked here has never been settled and I think never will be.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-29-2013, 12:07 PM
 
37,658 posts, read 25,360,569 times
Reputation: 5865
Default To Christians : Can you explain free will to me

The confusion occurs in thinking God MUST control everything or He isn't sovereign. The truth is that would limit His sovereignty. He has the power to not control and well as the power to control. When He gave US Dominion over the earth . . . that established the limits of our free will. We are constrained by God's laws and the consequences of violating them (both physical and spiritual) . . . but we are free to choose to violate them anyway and face the consequences. Violate the law of gravity and you will face the consequences. Violate any spiritual law and we will face the consequences. That s what our free will IS and it is established BY God's sovereign Will. It does not violate it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-29-2013, 03:51 PM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,127,021 times
Reputation: 866
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
No one has a free will. Our wills are influenced by innumerable variables. The closest you can ever get to having a free will is when/if you have been enlightened by the light of Christ and dwell in perfect peace regardless of all that is happening around you.
Nice to read this from you, Heartsong!

Sometimes I think the only "free will" is among those who have tasted of the Spirit of God. The rest of the world just can't understand it. (Just like any of us before we are saved.)


blessings!
brian
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-29-2013, 04:42 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,644,985 times
Reputation: 575
Quote:
Originally Posted by sisyphus89 View Post
I guess this might be a very trivial problem but I don't know the answer to it.
The question I have is how humans can have free will when everything is according to God's will.
I know there is a long history of free will problem in philosophy and theology but I thought the churches should have a very simple answer to this question to the general church going people.
Man exercises choice within the framework that God provides. In other words when you make a choice you must have at least option a and option b. You may have more options c, d, e, f etc... But God is the one that 1) enables the choices presented before you 2) influences the motivation for a choice you make.

Consider, you really thirsty in a desert and suddenly you come upon the choice to risk your life to cross a ravine over to a source of water or to not risk your life and stay put in the hopes of finding water elsewhere? Does not the fact that the environment and the level of thirst affect the decision as to whether you will cross that ravine? God controls the framework in which choice is exercised. It is still your choice but God can produce any outcome He so desires. In fact, all outcome is as He desires even if it seems against His will because what seems against His will is for now according to His will that He may demonstrate His will later on to present the contrast between our will and His.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-29-2013, 05:25 PM
 
Location: Tucson, Arizona
987 posts, read 881,312 times
Reputation: 293
Having our wills influenced by an unknowable variety of prior circumstances, genetic and environmental realities outside of our control does not make one a robot. Robots perform exactly as they are programmed to perform without guilt, thought, regrets or learning anything that affects any future behavior, notwithstanding many movies that appear to the contrary. God can take many ages to create children who will have true free will when they are in His image.

Just because it seems like you control your life, doesn't mean you do. In fact we have little control over anything in our life. Ever try to keep out random thoughts? Squash that guilty feeling or feeling of superiority? Try to make your eyes brown without the aid of contact lenses, if they're blue. Try to love a food you hate. Oh, you might be able to force yourself to eat it, but you won't enjoy it if you're like most everyone else. Try to fall in love with someone who repulses you. Try to not sin even in your thoughts for 12 hours, repenting for an evil thought is not not sinning, you still did something that you could not control. Ask your cat to sit up and beg, rofl. Create a child exactly when you want, with the exact characteristics you want. hmmmm and if it turns out he isn't what you want and rebels against you, keep him alive and torture him forever. Sorry, this isn't about hell. I don't believe in free will. Choices galore, all meant to teach us something. And the debate will go on until God settles it. Be well, be blessed, one and all.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-29-2013, 05:52 PM
 
6,824 posts, read 4,899,296 times
Reputation: 3724
I think it's clear God was calling me MANY times through His Spirit and My conscience to come to Christ for salvation.


Why did I not come? I loved darkness rather than light. (John 3). MANY times I was called to God's Word. Why did I not come? I loved darkness rather than light. I was under the dominion and POWER of self and sin.

I eventually came to the TRUTH of God. When Man is finally confronted with the REALITY of our Just, Righteous Creator God FEAR grips the heart and the RESPONSE was calling upon the name of the Lord in heart to be saved. I knew where I was heading without Christ. That I had NO ANSWER for my sin.

Eternally lost. GONE. NO HOPE. Out of God's compassion and mercy He granted me Grace. I certainly don't deserve life. He gave me ample opportunity to repent. I believe it will be clear to all of us this is exactly the case with all.

God is crying out for people to come to Him. No one could come unless the Father draws them to the Son, but the Lord Jesus cries in John 7 that whosoever comes shall drink from Him freely for forgiveness of sins.

There is no unrighteousness with God. He will judge righteously. When the secrets of the heart are made manifest we will only have praise of God. We'll see just how many times God reached out His hand to a rebellious stiff necked people's.

Are you reading this now while not submitting to receive the gift of God by Faith in Jesus Christ repenting to God through Him? Than you are rejecting His calling to repentance.

We are servants to whom we obey. Throw yourself at Jesus with a humble repentant heart and He will not be your judge but your savior freely forgiving ALL your trespasses.

What a beautiful, compassionate GOD we serve in Jesus Christ. He desires mercy not sacrifice, but He won't force you to LOVE Him.

Not that we loved God but He loved us, and sent His Son as the propitiation for our sin. We must respond to His love, however by repentance and faith in Jesus Christ.

Last edited by Mikelee81; 07-29-2013 at 06:04 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-30-2013, 12:56 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,127,021 times
Reputation: 866
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikelee81 View Post
I think it's clear God was calling me MANY times through His Spirit and My conscience to come to Christ for salvation.


Why did I not come? I loved darkness rather than light. (John 3). MANY times I was called to God's Word. Why did I not come? I loved darkness rather than light. I was under the dominion and POWER of self and sin.

I eventually came to the TRUTH of God. When Man is finally confronted with the REALITY of our Just, Righteous Creator God FEAR grips the heart and the RESPONSE was calling upon the name of the Lord in heart to be saved. I knew where I was heading without Christ. That I had NO ANSWER for my sin.

Eternally lost. GONE. NO HOPE. Out of God's compassion and mercy He granted me Grace. I certainly don't deserve life. He gave me ample opportunity to repent. I believe it will be clear to all of us this is exactly the case with all.

God is crying out for people to come to Him. No one could come unless the Father draws them to the Son, but the Lord Jesus cries in John 7 that whosoever comes shall drink from Him freely for forgiveness of sins.

There is no unrighteousness with God. He will judge righteously. When the secrets of the heart are made manifest we will only have praise of God. We'll see just how many times God reached out His hand to a rebellious stiff necked people's.

Are you reading this now while not submitting to receive the gift of God by Faith in Jesus Christ repenting to God through Him? Than you are rejecting His calling to repentance.

We are servants to whom we obey. Throw yourself at Jesus with a humble repentant heart and He will not be your judge but your savior freely forgiving ALL your trespasses.

What a beautiful, compassionate GOD we serve in Jesus Christ. He desires mercy not sacrifice, but He won't force you to LOVE Him.

Not that we loved God but He loved us, and sent His Son as the propitiation for our sin. We must respond to His love, however by repentance and faith in Jesus Christ.
If the only alternative is eternal hell, then "love" has nothing to do with it. You can't "love" someone who threatens you with torment if you don't.

Make sense?




peace.
brian
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-30-2013, 06:32 AM
 
6,824 posts, read 4,899,296 times
Reputation: 3724
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
If the only alternative is eternal hell, then "love" has nothing to do with it. You can't "love" someone who threatens you with torment if you don't.

Make sense?




peace.
brian
The wages of sin is DEATH. Romans 6:23. The soul that sins shall die. Ezekiel 18:4. We've all sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Romans 3

But the the Gift of God is Eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23.

God has decreed a just penalty for rebellion against Him. Hell is not a threat it just is. God has done everything He will do to keep us from that fate through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

His ways are above our ways, and above our finding out.

God in Christ bore YOUR and Mine Condemnation. The divine Son suffering separation from the Father. It will take an eternity to grasp the extant of God's love demonstrated toward us.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-30-2013, 06:52 AM
 
Location: East Coast
30,336 posts, read 20,076,279 times
Reputation: 2114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikelee81 View Post
The wages of sin is DEATH. Romans 6:23. The soul that sins shall die. Ezekiel 18:4. We've all sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Romans 3

But the the Gift of God is Eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23.

God has decreed a just penalty for rebellion against Him. Hell is not a threat it just is. God has done everything He will do to keep us from that fate through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

His ways are above our ways, and above our finding out.

God in Christ bore YOUR and Mine Condemnation. The divine Son suffering separation from the Father. It will take an eternity to grasp the extant of God's love demonstrated toward us.
His ways and thoughts were and are made known to us through Jesus Christ, so they are not past finding out. Unfortunately while you believe God is against the individual rather than that which enslaves him, I do not think you will ever comprehend this.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top