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Old 02-20-2008, 04:52 PM
 
Location: Indiana
1,250 posts, read 2,299,482 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexia319 View Post
I think God is outside of time, so to speak, so he already knows all that has happened and all that will happen. That doesn't mean that, in each moment of our lives, we do not have free will. We do! But God already knows how we are going to use that free will, just as you know what you did last week because last week is within your memory now. You had free will last week, as you were living it, and now you know how that free will worked out for you.
Exactly! My pastor just spoke about this a few weeks ago, and he made a statement that was awesome. "God has already been in your tomorrows." It brings me a peace just knowing that.
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Old 02-20-2008, 05:03 PM
 
Location: Socialist Republik of Amerika
6,212 posts, read 8,178,347 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dojilynn View Post
Exactly! My pastor just spoke about this a few weeks ago, and he made a statement that was awesome. "God has already been in your tomorrows." It brings me a peace just knowing that.
That may make people feel better, but it is a mistake to count on failure to grow.

The doctrine of predestiny weakens our resolve and the promise of hungering and thirsting after righteousness, that we might be filled. The word might is used throughout scripture to point out that it is not guaranteed. It is not of God to think that we are made to accept mediocrity, and that, it is God's plan, that we be less than we aught to be.

godspeed,

freedom
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Old 02-20-2008, 05:15 PM
 
Location: Indiana
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom View Post
That may make people feel better, but it is a mistake to count on failure to grow.

The doctrine of predestiny weakens our resolve and the promise of hungering and thirsting after righteousness, that we might be filled. The word might is used throughout scripture to point out that it is not guaranteed. It is not of God to think that we are made to accept mediocrity, and that, it is God's plan, that we be less than we aught to be.

godspeed,

freedom
Whoa! Back up a minute! I would never even begin to think that it was God's plan to accept mediocrity!

The whole point of my pastor's comment is that even when you are going through a really rough time, you can take hope in the fact that God has a plan for you. You can trust fully in His knowledge because He has already seen the outcome of your situation.

I don't agree with the predestination doctrine either. Apparently I posted this in the wrong thread.
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Old 02-20-2008, 05:42 PM
 
Location: Socialist Republik of Amerika
6,212 posts, read 8,178,347 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dojilynn View Post
Whoa! Back up a minute! I would never even begin to think that it was God's plan to accept mediocrity!

The whole point of my pastor's comment is that even when you are going through a really rough time, you can take hope in the fact that God has a plan for you. You can trust fully in His knowledge because He has already seen the outcome of your situation.

I don't agree with the predestination doctrine either. Apparently I posted this in the wrong thread.
Seeing the outcome of one's situation is the pre destination doctrine.
It gives people the mindset that their decisions and actions don't matter, that what God has seen will be.

It is subtle, but i think it is an error to assume it is all spelled out already.
And if God see's everything before it happens, then it is destined to be. His thoughts are seeds, just as ours, only His always happen. Freedom can not have pre set outcomes, or it is no longer freedom, but pre programmed.

godspeed,

freedom
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Old 02-21-2008, 08:35 PM
 
Location: Indiana
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I don't think it is all spelled out already, but I think God knows what will end up happening. God is omniscient, after all.

It is kind of like a parent and their kids. There are times that they are so predictable. They do the same behavior over and over again. Then if I tell someone that they are going to do it, they prove me wrong. They still have free will. However, I believe that we (as parents) are limited, were God is not. He knows the eventual outcome, but still allows us to do the choosing. Just because he knows the end of the story doesn't mean that it ends the way he wanted it to. It is His desire that all will choose Him. I don't think that He only picked a few to make it to Heaven. I think only a few will pick Him. He just knows who it will end up being before it ever happens.

I'm probably rambling, but oh well.

Last edited by dojilynn; 02-21-2008 at 09:01 PM..
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Old 02-21-2008, 11:52 PM
 
Location: South Africa
5,399 posts, read 3,425,414 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sisyphus89 View Post
I guess this might be a very trivial problem but I don't know the answer to it.
The question I have is how humans can have free will when everything is according to God's will.
I know there is a long history of free will problem in philosophy and theology but I thought the churches should have a very simple answer to this question to the general church going people.
I guess I will chime in here.

IMO free-will has nothing to do with salvation so that puts both Amenianists and Calvinists out of the picture.

I do however believe that salvation is a John 6:44 experience and that is totally up to the Father whom He draws in this age.

Free-will is a noun phrase in that it describes the type of will we have, free in nature to make choices. Very much like free-fall in skydiving, the skydiver is free to perform acrobatics until he/she MUST pull the ripcord to open the chute. While free to do tricks, they are still falling and not opening the chute, means splat!

The problem with both camps POV regarding free-will, it is seen as challenging the Sovereignty of God and IMO that both try to reduce the Sovereignty to carnal thinking and God is not carnal, waaay beyond our comprehension.

But it all depends on the doctrine of theology you were exposed to how free-will is understood.

For me our will and God's will work together, should we deviate and make a wrong choice, He is Big enough to fix up any mess up I make. The destination and outcome of mankind is assured, reconciliation to the Father, either in this age or the next.

Blessings
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Old 02-22-2008, 08:23 AM
 
Location: New England
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As probably the most outspoken "Calvanist" on the board I would like to point out some things.

We need to separate "free will" into two categories when speaking of the Gospel.

A. Free will regarding salvation and

B. Free will regarding God's providence in day to day choices and thoughts we make.

The bible clearly teaches that we are dead in our trespasses/sin and that no man seeks God on his own for salvation. We are told that in regard to our "belief in the savior" it does not come from us...in fact it comes in SPITE of us.

We are also told that we are free to make "choices" in things, but never once are we told we have a "choice" in whom to believe in. The only CLOSE verse is the "choose you this day" scripture but even then he is telling them to choose between two false God's and as far as HIS house, he serves the Lord.

In regard to salvation, we do not choose or seek God. He chooses us.
Rom 3:11 there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.

Rom 3:12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”

1Cr 2:14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Rom 5:6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.

Eph 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,

All, Can not, does not, powerless, dead...

Jesus make it clear also in the Matthew:
Mat 19:25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”

Mat 19:26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
Because we are dead (And how many dead people do you know of that can help themselves?), GOD must step in and "wake us" and/or call us.

Jesus and scripture again makes this clear:
Jhn 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jhn 6:64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
Jhn 6:65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.”

Jhn 1:13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

2Th 2:13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

2Th 2:14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Phl 1:29 For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him,
We are told that even our very faith is not from ourselves!
Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God–

2Ti 2:24 And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful.
2Ti 2:25 Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,
We are told over and over and over and over that we are "called" "chosen" and "predestined" and "elected".
1Th 2:12 encouraging, comforting and urging you to live lives worthy of God, who calls you into his kingdom and glory.

1Th 5:24 The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.

Rom 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

Rom 8:30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

1Cr 1:9 God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.

1Cr 1:24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

1Cr 1:26 Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth.

1Cr 7:18 Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised. Was a man uncircumcised when he was called?[. He should not be circumcised.

1Cr 7:21 Were you a slave when you were called? Don't let it trouble you-although if you can gain your freedom, do so.

Gal 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel-

Gal 1:15 But when God, who set me apart from birth* and called me by his grace, was pleased

Eph 1:18 I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints,

2Th 2:13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

2Th 2:14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Ti 6:12 Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

2Ti 1:9 who has saved us and called us to a holy life-not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,

Hbr 9:15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance-now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

1Pe 1:15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do;

1Pe 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

1Pe 5:10 And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.

2Pe 1:3 His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.

Jud 1:1 Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James, To those who have been called, who are loved by God the Father and kept by* Jesus Christ:
That's just on the calling!

A few more as I'm just running out of time to post all this!
Rom 8:33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.

Rom 11:5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.

Eph 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love Eph 1:5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will– ...Eph 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

Col 3:12 Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.

1Th 1:4 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you,

Mat 24:22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

Mat 24:24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect–if that were possible.

Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.

Tts 1:1 Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God's elect and the knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness-

1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,

2Pe 1:10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall,

That is certainly NOT an exhaustive listing. It's ALL OVER the bible. As you read (You do read your bible as much as you are on the forums right? ) pay attention to it, and you will see it on every other page.

For some more reading sake and context a larger passage of Romans 9
Rom 9:9 For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”
Rom 9:10 Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac.
Rom 9:11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad–in order that God's purpose in election might stand:
Rom 9:12 not by works but by him who calls–she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”
Rom 9:13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
Rom 9:14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!
Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

Rom 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”
Rom 9:18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
Rom 9:19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?”
Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ”
Rom 9:21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
Rom 9:22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath–prepared for destruction?
Rom 9:23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory–
Rom 9:24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

To know that while I was an enemy of God, dead and helpless that HE loved me, reached down and touched me giving me the very faith to believe is humbling to the point of tears.

I add nothing to his saving Grace. NOTHING. I am the man who beat his chest and could not look up to heaven. He is God, I am/was a worthless sinner now saved by HIS grace.

He who calls, also sustains. What a comfort and blessing.

Here is a link to some reading on the subject:

The Calvinist Corner

Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom View Post
Freedom can not have pre set outcomes, or it is no longer freedom, but pre programmed.

godspeed,

freedom
We not told that we are free in our natural state. We are told we are dead and slaves to sin! Once we enter into faith in Christ we are free indeed!

My eyes are about to fall out of my head - I need a break!
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Old 02-22-2008, 09:29 AM
 
Location: Huntsville, AL
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I don't know if I am being too simplistic with this, but I feel free will is just that. You are free to make your own choices, good or bad. Of course you will have to answer at the end as to the choices that you have made. You are not forced to live a certain way, to have your decisions made for you etc. Every step you take in a certain direction is all due to your free will.
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Old 02-22-2008, 09:41 AM
 
Location: New England
8,156 posts, read 12,584,719 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HsvMike View Post
I don't know if I am being too simplistic with this, but I feel free will is just that. You are free to make your own choices, good or bad. Of course you will have to answer at the end as to the choices that you have made. You are not forced to live a certain way, to have your decisions made for you etc. Every step you take in a certain direction is all due to your free will.
Did you read my post?
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Old 02-22-2008, 01:14 PM
 
Location: Huntsville, AL
2,221 posts, read 1,883,965 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JViello View Post
Did you read my post?
I did not read your post before I wrote that. I do understand what you are saying. I know that we are all sinners, and the only way to salvation is through Jesus. But it is everyones choice whether or not to follow that way. And to me, that is the true meaning of free will.
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