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Old 02-24-2008, 02:17 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 13,753,131 times
Reputation: 1323

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Quote:
I've heard so much by those who believe everything is ordained or God's purpose!
I have a story to share and like for those who seem to think God's purposes everything to His will. Since God has given you all this revelation, maybe one of you can tell me something Jesus hasn't quite gave me the answer too. Since all of the one's believe God has a greater design then the one He has shown me?
Because I'm confused~

There was a girl who was born into this world and had no choice in the direction her life led....
This story starts about when she was three years old! Please explain to her why God spoke her life into existence for the pleasure of men's sexual sin? Who lost her identity when the first hand of the men touched her? This continued until she was seventeen. Then was raped at 25 yrs old. Why did God ordain these men and father to sexually violate her life? When the father was suppose to represent the heavenly Father in love and trust.
It took Jesus 18 yrs of bringing individuals from the so call ET doctrine to show this woman a unconditional love and grace....
She cried many nights and days in that darkness of fear, confusion, anger!! Crying out to God for to make her normal.....like everyone else around her. Her thoughts plague her of who was she!!! And still to this day can say she walks by faith and not by sight. Because she has never knew what is real love!!! Touch by a man and held by a man because of the love of God. She believes Jesus and can only walk in the faith that He gives her that there is a love beyond this world. She can't see it right now! But one day she will!!! That is the hope He gave her......He used individuals to be instruments of His love and mercy. Through the so called church that I hear is so wrong to restore what the locust had eaten in her life!!!
Well to me "Jesus Christ" I have seen through many in the so called church. Then those who quote scripture to prove their 'all will be saved one day doctrine" and not one show compassion for the word of God..... just quoted. No love in those words.
A few weeks ago a man preyed on peoples beliefs and deceived them in trying to trick them into what he believe. That everything they were taught was a lie. Well she knows differently!!! If it was not for Jesus coming to this very soul who knows what would of come of this life....that is why she reacted the way she did.... with anger! And yet he still was going to prove his point and called her ignornant, unsaved, antichrist, deceived, this list goes on. Now do you see why I see that this teaching is not of God and there is no compassion in this teaching. If that man was sitting here and knew me personally do you think he would have done the same thing? There was no "Christ" in the reaction towards the woman who was fearing the deception that was trying to manipulate her into a false teaching. Would Jesus do that? To Peter who denied him or Paul who persecuted Him?
Please explain to me? You all seem to have Greek knowledge of the scripture and seem to have the answers..... where did I miss it? I didn't, I found it 18 year's ago..... in a little church in northern california. God knew the people in that church was filled with His Holy Spirit, full of His Love. Who would ask no question, but obey His commands to love unconditionally. They didn't have to prove Jesus.... He was in their hearts. And they didn't know where my life was for a long time until God through His mercy gave me the courage to share my story with them .
I keep reading all these post by UC and I can't hear the compassion of Christ Jesus..... Just words no heart in the sharing. And to say man does not have a choice in his ways.... that God is behind all of it...... Well the one thing that findly I could see was when I was laying on that bed and being violated of who I was, that I findly saw Jesus standing there showing me He was there and that is why He came to the earth and walked upon a hill called calvary for this woman and many more like her!!! No man can take that from my heart and soul.....
CurlytheCosmo, I am sorry for your pain and suffering. I pray for your healing. I am sharing a belief based on what I understand in the scriptures. If I ignore the scriptures which speak to this, for me, I am not being truthful and would be living a lie. If I believe that all is out of God (as I read in the scriptures like Romans 11:36) this is what I understand as I study God's word and pray for understanding. I did not say that I understand all of God's ways, but I do believe that God brings healing for those who have been abused like this and I believe that He has a greater purpose for all of it. God is good.


Quote:
I keep reading all these post by UC and I can't hear the compassion of Christ Jesus..... Just words no heart in the sharing. And to say man does not have a choice in his ways.... that God is behind all of it......
I don't think that I ever stated that we don't have choices, CurlytheCosmo. I said that I don't believe that we have free will. Also, I have never condemned Christians who believe in eternal hell or said that they were not Christians. I just don't agree with the belief that the scriptures teach that hell is eternal. How can you say that not one of us shows compassion for the word of God? What do you mean by this? I have shared so many times that I believe that God will eventually show everyone the error of his or her ways and that because God is able to do this, all will come to Him realizing their need for salvation. Is this wrong to believe that everyone will eventually repent of the wrong that they have done and want to do right, want to return to the Father? Isn't this why Jesus died? Didn't He die for all of us, even the vilest of human beings?

Quote:
And yet he still was going to prove his point and called her ignornant, unsaved, antichrist, deceived, this list goes on. Now do you see why I see that this teaching is not of God and there is no compassion in this teaching. If that man was sitting here and knew me personally do you think he would have done the same thing? There was no "Christ" in the reaction towards the woman who was fearing the deception that was trying to manipulate her into a false teaching. Would Jesus do that? To Peter who denied him or Paul who persecuted Him?
I don't know what you are referring to here and I believe that it is a mistake to say that all who hold to this belief have the same reaction or would react in the same way. You know, CurlytheCosmo, we are different individuals although we may agree with some of the same teachings and this goes for those who believe in the doctrine of an eternal hell or annihilation. I have been called ignorant, deceived, the anti-Christ, the devil, a wolf in sheep's clothing, evil, and the list goes on but I don't say that this type of reaction from some individuals is the reason why I disagree with a teaching.
God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 02-24-2008 at 02:43 PM..
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Old 02-24-2008, 02:45 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 13,753,131 times
Reputation: 1323
Terri, if my posts offend you, just put me on your ignore list.

Love,
Sis Shana
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Old 02-24-2008, 03:27 PM
 
Location: On a road heaven bound !
10,290 posts, read 7,997,597 times
Reputation: 17783
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
Terri, if my posts offend you, just put me on your ignore list.

Love,
Sis Shana
No, shana it is not you it is that teaching that is tearing me apart. I swear it is not you....... I love some many and when I read my heart breaks. I want all to come to the knowledge of Jesus Christ!!! Even those who did what they did to my life. I love them too!!! I can't explain on this computer. I just know that Jesus is everything!! I know we believe the same but that one part is so hurting my heart....because it saying to me that God did that to me not those people. And I can't receive that into my heart. I will fight it to the end....not you shana or anyone else. I will fight it in prayer until the Lord takes me home. My Lord Jesus would never touch me in that way....
Love,
Sis, Terri

Last edited by Cyber Munchkin; 02-24-2008 at 03:42 PM..
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Old 02-24-2008, 03:54 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 13,753,131 times
Reputation: 1323
Quote:
No, shana it is not you it is that teaching that is tearing me apart. I swear it is not you....... I love some many and when I read my heart breaks. I want all to come to the knowledge of Jesus Christ!!! Even those who did what they did to my life. I love them too!!! I can't explain on this computer. I just know that Jesus is everything!! I know we believe the same but that one part is so hurting my heart....because it saying to me that God did that to me not those people. And I can't receive that into my heart. I will fight it to the end....not you shana or anyone else. I will fight it in prayer until the Lord takes me home. My Lord Jesus would never touch me in that way....
Love,
Sis, Terri
Terri, I understand where you are coming from and I can understand how painful it must be. I can't fully imagine what you have gone through but I have had members of my family and friends who have suffered similar abuse. I'm really sorry for what happened to you. I do believe that God will right whatever wrong was done to you and that He will bring complete healing. I hope that you can understand that I must share what I understand to be the truth just as you believe you must. Just as the teaching of the total sovereignty of God brings pain to you, the teaching of an eternal hell brings pain to me, but we both share as we are led and as we trust in God. Just wanted to share that this whole subject -free will vs. sovereignty of God, is one that believers have struggled with and disagreed on down through time. Another thing that I wanted to share Terri is that some Christian Universalists do believe in free will and that not all Christians who believe in the sovereignty of God are Universalist Christians. I think that there was 1 Calvinist also who posted to this thread and this person is not a UC. Thank you, Terri, and God bless you.

Love,
Sis Shana

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 02-24-2008 at 04:49 PM.. Reason: typos
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Old 02-24-2008, 05:45 PM
 
Location: New England
8,155 posts, read 18,124,197 times
Reputation: 3274
Quote:
Originally Posted by curlythecosmo View Post
I've heard so much by those who believe everything is ordained or God's purpose!
I have a story to share and like for those who seem to think God's purposes everything to His will. Since God has given you all this revelation, maybe one of you can tell me something Jesus hasn't quite gave me the answer too. Since all of the one's believe God has a greater design then the one He has shown me?
Because I'm confused~

There was a girl who was born into this world and had no choice in the direction her life led....
This story starts about when she was three years old! Please explain to her why God spoke her life into existence for the pleasure of men's sexual sin? Who lost her identity when the first hand of the men touched her? This continued until she was seventeen. Then was raped at 25 yrs old. Why did God ordain these men and father to sexually violate her life? When the father was suppose to represent the heavenly Father in love and trust.
It took Jesus 18 yrs of bringing individuals from the so call ET doctrine to show this woman a unconditional love and grace....
She cried many nights and days in that darkness of fear, confusion, anger!! Crying out to God for to make her normal.....like everyone else around her. Her thoughts plague her of who was she!!! And still to this day can say she walks by faith and not by sight. Because she has never knew what is real love!!! Touch by a man and held by a man because of the love of God. She believes Jesus and can only walk in the faith that He gives her that there is a love beyond this world. She can't see it right now! But one day she will!!! That is the hope He gave her......He used individuals to be instruments of His love and mercy. Through the so called church that I hear is so wrong to restore what the locust had eaten in her life!!!
Well to me "Jesus Christ" I have seen through many in the so called church. Then those who quote scripture to prove their 'all will be saved one day doctrine" and not one show compassion for the word of God..... just quoted. No love in those words.
A few weeks ago a man preyed on peoples beliefs and deceived them in trying to trick them into what he believe. That everything they were taught was a lie. Well she knows differently!!! If it was not for Jesus coming to this very soul who knows what would of come of this life....that is why she reacted the way she did.... with anger! And yet he still was going to prove his point and called her ignornant, unsaved, antichrist, deceived, this list goes on. Now do you see why I see that this teaching is not of God and there is no compassion in this teaching. If that man was sitting here and knew me personally do you think he would have done the same thing? There was no "Christ" in the reaction towards the woman who was fearing the deception that was trying to manipulate her into a false teaching. Would Jesus do that? To Peter who denied him or Paul who persecuted Him?
Please explain to me? You all seem to have Greek knowledge of the scripture and seem to have the answers..... where did I miss it? I didn't, I found it 18 year's ago..... in a little church in northern california. God knew the people in that church was filled with His Holy Spirit, full of His Love. Who would ask no question, but obey His commands to love unconditionally. They didn't have to prove Jesus.... He was in their hearts. And they didn't know where my life was for a long time until God through His mercy gave me the courage to share my story with them .
I keep reading all these post by UC and I can't hear the compassion of Christ Jesus..... Just words no heart in the sharing. And to say man does not have a choice in his ways.... that God is behind all of it...... Well the one thing that findly I could see was when I was laying on that bed and being violated of who I was, that I findly saw Jesus standing there showing me He was there and that is why He came to the earth and walked upon a hill called calvary for this woman and many more like her!!! No man can take that from my heart and soul.....

God Bless
Terri ~curlythecosmo~
Terri, thank you for sharing such a heartfelt testimony. There is an old saying that says:

A man (or woman) with an opinion, is at a loss to a man (or woman) with an experience.

This was spoken by an old, wise, black man who I was blessed to have as a mentor in my life for a time who saw things in his years on earth that many would and/or could not.

Your testimony is WHY I personally feel the responsibility to outline the difference between "free will" regarding salvation and "free will" regarding God's providence. (Providence = the foreseeing care and guidance of God over the creatures of the earth.) when talking about "the will of man" and pointing out the doctrine of "election" and "calling"

The scripture is clear that we are free to make "choices" in our lives but God does ultimatly determine our steps. Men are "free" to do and choose evil, or good and we don't always know why God allows evil to enter our lives (As with Job) but we do know that it always works out in the end for the good of those whom he has chosen (You and me) to call "his".

I have many many deep scars from this world myself. I look forward to the day when they will be wiped away without memory.

May the Peace, Love and Grace of our Lord stay with you always.

Jay
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Old 02-24-2008, 06:16 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 13,753,131 times
Reputation: 1323
J'Viello, do you believe that God has preordained or chosen some to have eternal life and that He has preordained the rest to eternal hell, through no choice of their own? Do you believe that those who reject Jesus do so because they are preordained to reject Him? How is this reconciled with scriptures which speak of God's love for all men? Not to turn this into to a UR thread, but to speak to the belief in the sovereignty and love of God as far how this relates to the eternal destiny of individuals. God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 02-24-2008 at 06:31 PM..
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Old 02-24-2008, 06:41 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 13,753,131 times
Reputation: 1323
Romans 11: 36. For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things

Just sharing:

Quote:
If I created a robot, then I would have to be responsible for
everything that the robot did, because everything the robot would do,
would be because of the programing that was put into the robot. Now, if I
put a program into the robot where it was able to act independently..........
As the creator, I would STILL be responsible because I was the one who
allowed it to act independently......... and all the more so if I knew that by
allowing it to act independently, it would in fact go haywire, and cause all
kinds of destruction and wreak havoc!! Of course if I were to create a car
and a robot to operate that car, then I become responsible for every detail
of both the car, and the robot operating that car"
by Keith (Tentmaker)

God bless
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Old 02-24-2008, 07:06 PM
 
Location: Western Washington, USA
37 posts, read 94,689 times
Reputation: 33
I am one of the ones that Shana is talking about. I am totally conviced of the truth of UR and I am also a believer in free will within the boundaries of the choices that God gives us. I do not believe that God is the author of evil as many teach.

These are two areas of belief that should not be mixed or confused. There have been many who do not believe in free will that would never embrace UR and there are many in UR that do not embrace ultra sovereignty as I call it. In fact, over at Tentmaker we have had pages of discussion on the subject of free will vs ultimate sovereingty and we finally just had to stop as we never could convince one another to change their beliefs.

I have often thought of the impartation of the devil as being just a slight taint that over a long period of time leads humanity to death. It is similar to a Vegas casino. They do not have to monitor every player and every game, they just have to make sure that the odds are slightly in the favor of the house. One individual may make the right choices and win temporarily, but overall, the player will lose if he continues to play and overall the house will win over all players.

The devil does not have to be omnipresent for what he did in Adam to eventually affect all men. He does not have to micromanage the evil because the taint of sin and death is in all as we were all in Adam.

Jesus came to inject into humanity the cure for the virus that the enemy planted in humanity. God does not have to micromanage every man or every situation because evil is overcome by good and love can never fail. A single individual may die without Christ, but the blood of the Lamb will eventually draw all men unto Him and God will be all in all. Evil will continue to hang on for a time and evil men will be able to do evil for a time. But not forever, Praise God. As we were all in Adam by the Sovereignty of God and are drawn to sin and death, we were all in Christ when He rose by the Sovereignty of God and His seed of life remains in us and cannot be forever overcome by sin and death.

Our free will only determines when we will die in sin at some point after the age of accountability and at what point we will believe and accept the life which belongs to us all in Christ.

The law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus is a higher law than the law of sin and death. His life will eventually fill all men and there is nothing man or the devil can do about it. As the Borg say: "Resistence is Futile".

John
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Old 02-24-2008, 07:38 PM
 
Location: Socialist Republik of Amerika
6,212 posts, read 11,408,933 times
Reputation: 1101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kratos View Post
I am one of the ones that Shana is talking about. I am totally conviced of the truth of UR and I am also a believer in free will within the boundaries of the choices that God gives us. I do not believe that God is the author of evil as many teach.

These are two areas of belief that should not be mixed or confused. There have been many who do not believe in free will that would never embrace UR and there are many in UR that do not embrace ultra sovereignty as I call it. In fact, over at Tentmaker we have had pages of discussion on the subject of free will vs ultimate sovereingty and we finally just had to stop as we never could convince one another to change their beliefs.

I have often thought of the impartation of the devil as being just a slight taint that over a long period of time leads humanity to death. It is similar to a Vegas casino. They do not have to monitor every player and every game, they just have to make sure that the odds are slightly in the favor of the house. One individual may make the right choices and win temporarily, but overall, the player will lose if he continues to play and overall the house will win over all players.

The devil does not have to be omnipresent for what he did in Adam to eventually affect all men. He does not have to micromanage the evil because the taint of sin and death is in all as we were all in Adam.

Jesus came to inject into humanity the cure for the virus that the enemy planted in humanity. God does not have to micromanage every man or every situation because evil is overcome by good and love can never fail. A single individual may die without Christ, but the blood of the Lamb will eventually draw all men unto Him and God will be all in all. Evil will continue to hang on for a time and evil men will be able to do evil for a time. But not forever, Praise God. As we were all in Adam by the Sovereignty of God and are drawn to sin and death, we were all in Christ when He rose by the Sovereignty of God and His seed of life remains in us and cannot be forever overcome by sin and death.

Our free will only determines when we will die in sin at some point after the age of accountability and at what point we will believe and accept the life which belongs to us all in Christ.

The law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus is a higher law than the law of sin and death. His life will eventually fill all men and there is nothing man or the devil can do about it. As the Borg say: "Resistence is Futile".

John
If we are all doomed to stay sinners, how do you explain those that have perfected love and overcome sin. Like, Enoch, Elijah, John the baptist, John the beloved, Mary (virgin) and many others that lived and do live according to the path of Christ.

godspeed,

freedom
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Old 02-24-2008, 11:10 PM
 
Location: Western Washington, USA
37 posts, read 94,689 times
Reputation: 33
Freedom,

I don't believe that anyone completely overcame sin except Jesus Christ. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. I do not hold to the Immaculate Conception of Mary as the RCC teaches. The seed of Adam in Mary and Enoch and John the Baptist etc. brought forth death in them all.

The Gospel is that the seed of the second Adam is in us all too and it will overcome the sin of Adam in us all eventually.

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

John
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