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Old 02-25-2008, 05:08 PM
 
Location: Socialist Republik of Amerika
6,212 posts, read 8,389,080 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kratos View Post
I believe there will come a day when the last enemy of physical death will be defeated and this mortality will have taken on immortality, but I do not believe that anyone has acceived that yet except Jesus. Mary and John are just speculation. I believe that both Enoch and Moses were taken by the Lord when they died as Satan battled for the body of Moses so he had left it behind and it was not changed as ours will one day experience.

John
The day is when one has overcome all weaknesses, through Christ.
To him who overcometh........ Revelation teaches the rewards to those that overcome. This is not salvation, this is the divine nature, that is available to those who grow from salvation to the divine nature. Through love, praise and thankgiving.

This is not something that has been taught, because the traditions of the fathers (churches and preachers) have desired to be drunk with power, and control the minds of men.

Ye shall know them by their fruits....

godspeed,

freedom
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Old 02-25-2008, 05:45 PM
 
Location: NC
11,514 posts, read 8,977,478 times
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Quote:
Hbr 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.


Hebrews 11
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2. For by it the men of old gained approval. 3. By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible. 4. By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks. 5. By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God. 6. And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. 7. By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. 8. By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9. By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise; 10. for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11. By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive, even beyond the proper time of life, since she considered Him faithful who had promised. 12. Therefore there was born even of one man, and him as good as dead at that, as many descendants AS THE STARS OF HEAVEN IN NUMBER, AND INNUMERABLE AS THE SAND WHICH IS BY THE SEASHORE. 13. All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. YLT (caps from the translation)

translated=metatithei=to transfer to another place.

I believe that Enoch did not see death at that time and was removed to some place of safety at that time. He is recorded among those who died in faith.


Quote:
Where does it say that only Jesus is immortal?


1 Timothy 6

13. I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; 14. That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15. Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16. Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
KJV

1Timothy 6
13 I am charging you in the sight of God, Who is vivifying all, and of Jesus Christ, Who testifies in the ideal avowal before Pontius Pilate,
14 that you keep this precept unspotted, irreprehensible, unto the advent of our Lord, Christ Jesus,
15 which, to its own eras, the happy and only Potentate will be showing: He is King of kings and Lord of lords,
16 Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian! Amen! (Concordant Lit)


1 Timothy 6
13. I charge thee, before God, who is making all things alive, and of Christ Jesus, who did testify before Pontius Pilate the right profession, 14. that thou keep the command unspotted, unblameable, till the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15. which in His own times He shall shew -- the blessed and only potentate, the King of the kings and Lord of the lords, 16. who only is having immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable, whom no one of men did see, nor is able to see, to whom [is] honour and might age-during! Amen. YLT

Quote:
I think Jesus said, the things i do Ye shall do and more.
Yes, He did. One day all will have immortality. God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 02-25-2008 at 06:13 PM.. Reason: added ref
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Old 02-25-2008, 06:31 PM
 
Location: Socialist Republik of Amerika
6,212 posts, read 8,389,080 times
Reputation: 1057
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
Hebrews 11
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2. For by it the men of old gained approval. 3. By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible. 4. By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks. 5. By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God. 6. And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. 7. By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. 8. By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9. By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise; 10. for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11. By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive, even beyond the proper time of life, since she considered Him faithful who had promised. 12. Therefore there was born even of one man, and him as good as dead at that, as many descendants AS THE STARS OF HEAVEN IN NUMBER, AND INNUMERABLE AS THE SAND WHICH IS BY THE SEASHORE. 13. All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. YLT (caps from the translation)

translated=metatithei=to transfer to another place.

I believe that Enoch did not see death at that time and was removed to some place of safety at that time. He is recorded among those who died in faith.
Then you have not read his record, he says what happened while in heaven, and what he was given to do when he returned to earth. He raised up a mighty nation that was caught up to heaven. Thousands of people translated/transfigured/quickened into the kingdom of God. He spoke and the mountains moved, the heavens opened, the armies defeated. He was given the keys to the kingdom and resides in the kingdom of God, as the first to be born of the spirit. The church of the firstborn. It is scripture that was removed from the canon in 400 a.d.by one vote... it is still in the ethiopic bible.




Quote:
1 Timothy 6

13. I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; 14. That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15. Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16. Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
KJV

1Timothy 6
13 I am charging you in the sight of God, Who is vivifying all, and of Jesus Christ, Who testifies in the ideal avowal before Pontius Pilate,
14 that you keep this precept unspotted, irreprehensible, unto the advent of our Lord, Christ Jesus,
15 which, to its own eras, the happy and only Potentate will be showing: He is King of kings and Lord of lords,
16 Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian! Amen! (Concordant Lit)


1 Timothy 6
13. I charge thee, before God, who is making all things alive, and of Christ Jesus, who did testify before Pontius Pilate the right profession, 14. that thou keep the command unspotted, unblameable, till the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15. which in His own times He shall shew -- the blessed and only potentate, the King of the kings and Lord of the lords, 16. who only is having immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable, whom no one of men did see, nor is able to see, to whom [is] honour and might age-during! Amen. YLT



Yes, He did. One day all will have immortality. God bless.
If this chapter is read from the beginning it shows the context of what is really being said. Christ brings immortallity to anyone that seeks after righteousness, holiness, godliness. Upon his appearing, which is when one is prepared to behold Him, this is when death is swallowed up. This is not reserved for the far off, it is at hand. To those that believe and seek first the kingdom of God. It is what Jesus was teaching those to whom he said, there be some standing here that shall not taste of death, till they see the son of man coming with power and in His glory.

We put things in the far off, and Hebrews clearly teaches that by doing that, we don't receive in the now. Christ will return for anyone that fulfills His word (behold I come quickly), and He will show them the Father. Caught up in the power and glory of their maker and allowed to dwell with them.

godspeed,

freedom
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Old 02-25-2008, 07:38 PM
 
Location: NC
11,514 posts, read 8,977,478 times
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Hi, I believe that we do have the promise of immortality and that in that sense we have it now (because it is promised to us) but I believe that it is a future event. The scriptures speak of those who have fallen asleep in Christ and I believe that this means that these individuals are the dead in Christ. But because they are in Christ, they are have passed out of death and into life. They are dead but they will rise in the resurrection and will obtain immortality. I also read that Enoch is recorded as one who died in the faith. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this. Thanks for sharing and God bless.
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Old 02-25-2008, 07:57 PM
 
Location: Socialist Republik of Amerika
6,212 posts, read 8,389,080 times
Reputation: 1057
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
Hi, I believe that we do have the promise of immortality and that in that sense we have it now (because it is promised to us) but I believe that it is a future event. The scriptures speak of those who have fallen asleep in Christ and I believe that this means that these individuals are the dead in Christ. But because they are in Christ, they are have passed out of death and into life. They are dead but they will rise in the resurrection and will obtain immortality. I also read that Enoch is recorded as one who died in the faith. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this. Thanks for sharing and God bless.
How does one not see death and die?

How do you interpret what Jesus said, there be some standing here that shall not taste of death, till i come in my kingdom with power?
He has not yet come in His Kingdom with power so those he was speaking to, did not yet die.

godspeed,

freedom
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Old 02-25-2008, 08:05 PM
 
Location: In the♥of Jesus !
9,581 posts, read 5,253,323 times
Reputation: 17614
Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom View Post
The day is when one has overcome all weaknesses, through Christ.
To him who overcometh........ Revelation teaches the rewards to those that overcome. This is not salvation, this is the divine nature, that is available to those who grow from salvation to the divine nature. Through love, praise and thankgiving.

This is not something that has been taught, because the traditions of the fathers (churches and preachers) have desired to be drunk with power, and control the minds of men.

Ye shall know them by their fruits....

godspeed,

freedom
freedom, I do understand what you are saying here. I did a study sometime ago on complete sanctification by John Wesley. I do believe a person can attain and receive a pure heart today.
It is not salvation like you say. It is the work of the Holy Spirit bringing the soul into complete purity of heart. The old man, sin nature is completely dead and crucified. The Holy Spirit fills the heart with the purity of Christ's nature. No longer does the desire of the flesh live in the heart. But the Spirit of God. It is not taught today like you said. But I do believe God still does this today.....
I had my minister tell me sometime ago that he experience three individuals in the 45 years of ministry stand and give testimony to God completely sanctifying their lives and their lives showed the purity, fruit of the holiness they proclaimed. He also told me within the time frame of three weeks all three individuals went home to be with the Lord.
God Bless
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Old 02-25-2008, 08:44 PM
 
7 posts, read 11,125 times
Reputation: 11
Default Free Will

God gives us the right to chose. It's that simple, either you chose God or you chose anything else and of course that would not be going in God's direction.
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Old 02-25-2008, 08:48 PM
 
Location: NC
11,514 posts, read 8,977,478 times
Reputation: 1268
Quote:
How does one not see death and die?
Hi, John, are you speaking of the passage about Enoch? As I shared, I believe that Enoch did not see death at that time, that he was transferred to a place of safety but he is recorded in the group of those who died in faith. This tells me that he did see death eventually.

Quote:
How do you interpret what Jesus said, there be some standing here that shall not taste of death, till i come in my kingdom with power?He has not yet come in His Kingdom with power so those he was speaking to, did not yet die.
Well, one key thing here to me is that they would not taste of death till He came in His kingdom with power, so this says to me that they did die later. I don't believe that the apostles or anyone who was there with Jesus at that time are living today. I don't believe that they obtained immortality and then died later. How could this be?I believe that "coming in His kingdom with power" refers to the day of Pentecost (Acts 1-2) The power of God was manifested. Paul speaks of Christians being delivered from the domain of darkness and transferred to to the kingdom of God's beloved Son, so I believe that Jesus is ruling in His kingdom now. Jesus is sitting at the right hand of God and He is in the process of subjecting all to Himself, beginning with the believers. I believe that we obtain immortality upon the resurrection. God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 02-25-2008 at 09:05 PM..
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Old 02-25-2008, 09:12 PM
 
Location: Socialist Republik of Amerika
6,212 posts, read 8,389,080 times
Reputation: 1057
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
Hi, John, are you speaking of the passage about Enoch? As I shared, I believe that Enoch did not see death at that time, that he was transferred to a place of safety but he is recorded in the group of those who died in faith. This tells me that he did see death eventually.



Well, one key thing here to me is that they would not taste of death till He came in His kingdom with power, so this says to me that they did die later. I don't believe that the apostles or anyone who was there with Jesus at that time are living today. I don't believe that they obtained immortality and then died later. How could this be?I believe that "coming in His kingdom with power" refers to the day of Pentecost (Acts 1-2) The power of God was manifested. Paul speaks of Christians being delivered from the domain of darkness and transferred to to the kingdom of God's beloved Son, so I believe that Jesus is ruling in His kingdom now. Jesus is sitting at the right hand of God and He is in the process of subjecting all to Himself, beginning with the believers. I believe that we obtain immortality upon the resurrection. God bless.
If you believe that He has already come in His Kingdom with Power, then why did he even need to state that phrase, it was only weeks away... and if He has already come in His Kingdom with Power... why in Revelation does it say that Satan will be bound and death will be no more, if its already happened, i hope this isn't heaven...

godspeed,

freedom
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Old 02-25-2008, 09:15 PM
 
Location: Socialist Republik of Amerika
6,212 posts, read 8,389,080 times
Reputation: 1057
Quote:
Originally Posted by curlythecosmo View Post
freedom, I do understand what you are saying here. I did a study sometime ago on complete sanctification by John Wesley. I do believe a person can attain and receive a pure heart today.
It is not salvation like you say. It is the work of the Holy Spirit bringing the soul into complete purity of heart. The old man, sin nature is completely dead and crucified. The Holy Spirit fills the heart with the purity of Christ's nature. No longer does the desire of the flesh live in the heart. But the Spirit of God. It is not taught today like you said. But I do believe God still does this today.....
I had my minister tell me sometime ago that he experience three individuals in the 45 years of ministry stand and give testimony to God completely sanctifying their lives and their lives showed the purity, fruit of the holiness they proclaimed. He also told me within the time frame of three weeks all three individuals went home to be with the Lord.
God Bless

Yes, the fulness of the Father is available in the now, not just the far off.
There is never a good time to put off righteousness, and rely on something being given later, when it has all been made available now...who knows how close we can be with our Father but Christ. And He said the kingdom is within us, and is at hand (right here).

godspeed,

freedom
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