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Old 02-26-2008, 11:18 AM
 
Location: New England
8,155 posts, read 18,240,214 times
Reputation: 3279

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdy_56 View Post
Evidently then, the apostle St. Paul was wrong....

"For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of Him who subjected the same in hope. And the hope is that in the end the whole of created life shall be delivered...."
Paul is not talking about us there.

Not sure what translation you got there but it doesn't really line up with the other versions...lets look at it in a well known English translation:
Rom 8:19 The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed.

Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope

Rom 8:21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

By your definition in verse 19 it says that the creation wait in eager expectation for the creation to be revealed. Doesn't make sense.

And in verse 21 the creation will be liberated to be brought into the freedom of the children of God. Wait. I thought by your standards the "creation" WAS the Children of God so how can they be brought into themselves?

As for the rest of your post...just like I said: You can try and Greek your way around Roman's 9 but it's pretty clear in what it says.


Can't find a response in English to the English? Confuse the matter using Greek with the new subjective lexicon by Remco! Operators are standing by!

lol
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Old 02-26-2008, 11:50 AM
 
1,686 posts, read 2,413,659 times
Reputation: 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by JViello View Post
Paul is not talking about us there.
St. Paul is speaking about the entire groaning creation, the ktisis, and marks the ktisis with the words "we" and "they". "We" the first-fruits, and "they" groan awaiting final deliverance.

Quote:
Rom 8:19 The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed.
Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope
Rom 8:21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
Precisely: the whole of created life shall be delivered by the One who has so subjected it to futility. You will note it is "not by any choice of its own" or "not willingly" but "by reason of Him" who so subjected it in hope.
Quote:
By your definition in verse 19 it says that the creation wait in eager expectation for the creation to be revealed. Doesn't make sense.
You lost me there partna! The whole of created life, (everything created= the ktisis), shall be delivered, not might be, or could be, the whole ktisis shall be delivered/ rescued!

Quote:
And in verse 21 the creation will be liberated to be brought into the freedom of the children of God. Wait. I thought by your standards the "creation" WAS the Children of God so how can they be brought into themselves?
As Judge Judy would say, put on your listening ears, (and your specs as well) The whole of created life shall be delivered by the One who so subjected it; the subjection "not willingly", or not according to their will, but according to the One who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will. Again: pay attention to "we" and "they".

Quote:
As for the rest of your post...just like I said: You can try and Greek your way around Roman's 9 but it's pretty clear in what it says.
Very clear indeed, but perhaps you can disclose to us what "fitted" means in Koine?
Fitted=katartivzw
Katartivzw=
To render or to fit.
To make sound or complete.
To mend what has been broken or rent.
To repair what has been broken or rent.
To put in order.
To arrange. To adjust.
To fit or frame for one's self.
To strengthen, to perfect, to complete.
To make one what he aught to be.
Fitted= kathrtismena=
Literally adjusted or mended.
ei de qelwn o qeoV endeixasqai thn orghn kai gnwrisai to dunaton autou hnegken en pollh makroqumia skeuh orghV kathrtismena eiV apwleian
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Old 02-26-2008, 03:09 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 13,838,917 times
Reputation: 1323
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown
J'Viello, do you believe that God has preordained or chosen some to have eternal life and that He has preordained the rest to eternal hell, through no choice of their own?

Quote:
Mankind was given a directive. Mankind did not obey. It is mankind that is at fault, not God.
So, as a Calvinist do you believe that God has ordained some to eternal life and some to eternal hell? Do you believe that people have a choice as to whether or not they become sinners? Did God know what would transpire in the creation if He has elected to save some from eternity?

Quote:
If he did not save one, he is justified, if he saves any he is merciful.


So do you believe as a Calvinist that God who sees beginning to end and from eternity has decided to be merciful to some, the elect, and that He has decided to withhold mercy from others and in His foreknowledge He has preordained who will have eternal life and who will end up in eternal hell?

Quote:
Rom 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
We have seemed to forget that these days.
I agree that it does depend on God's mercy. Amen.
Quote:
But to be more specific on your question and where you are attempting to lead this (CU viewpoint) I'll simply point out 1 Peter 1:2
I am not attempting to lead this anywhere, just asking whether or not you believe that God has preordained some to eternal life and others to an eternal hell? If you do, how does this correspond with the love of God for all men? I don't see how the two go together. Would you agree that God loves all men? Would you agree that God is described as agape love?
Quote:
1Pe 1:2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood:
God is not subject to our time and space. He has foreknowledge that we do not.
Amen.
Quote:
Moreso, if you don't believe what you stated you'll have to contend and "greek" your way out of Romans 9
Can you explain what you mean?

Quote:
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”
Quote:

Rom 9:18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
Rom 9:19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?”
Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ”
Rom 9:21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
Rom 9:22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath–prepared for destruction?
I have no problems with these scriptures, J'Viello and have quoted them many times.
Quote:
Do you believe that those who reject Jesus do so because they are preordained to reject Him?
Quote:
ALL HAVE GONE ASTRAY...There are NONE THAT SEEK GOD. God doesn't have to do anything that isn't already done. In our nature we will not and do not seek Him on our own.
I agree that we do not seek Him on our own. So do you believe that God has preordained some to remain in rebellion and that He has preordained others from eternity to be saved, meaning that He has preordained some to eternal life and that He has preordained others to an eternal hell? Do you believe that Jesus tasted death for all men or for a select few?

Quote:
How is this reconciled with scriptures which speak of God's love for all men?
Quote:
So are you saying a mother does not love both her well behaved child and her child who was a total wreck to the point of killing themselves through a heroin habit?


No, I am asking how do you reconcile the belief (as I understand Calvinism) that God has preordained some to eternal life and preordained some to eternal hell with the realization that there are scriptures which speak of God's love for all men and that He gave Jesus for all men. Do you believe that anyone had a choice as to whether or not he or she would become a sinner? Doesn't the Creator who has the ability to grant repentance and to be merciful differ from a mother who has limited ability to help a child?

Did Jesus die for all men?
Quote:
For the sake of this thread I'm going to ignore the CU stuff you tossed in, please try and do the same.
What CU stuff are you referring to, that Jesus died for all men and that God loves all men? Isn't this a teaching presented in the scriptures? Do Armenians (sp?) believe that it is? Why is it specifically characteristic of CU teaching? God bless and thanks for sharing.

God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 02-26-2008 at 03:54 PM..
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Old 02-26-2008, 03:46 PM
 
Location: Somewhere! :)
1,989 posts, read 3,951,805 times
Reputation: 373
I refrained before, but now I'm going to ask...
What's "CU"?

I originally thought it was somebody's forum name.
(Stop laughing at me... It was an honest question.)
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Old 02-26-2008, 03:50 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 13,838,917 times
Reputation: 1323
Christian Universalist, Computer Guy. Christian Universalists or Universalist Christians believe that all will be restored to the Father through Jesus Christ eventually. God bless.
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Old 02-26-2008, 03:59 PM
 
Location: Somewhere! :)
1,989 posts, read 3,951,805 times
Reputation: 373
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
Christian Universalist, Computer Guy. Christian Universalists or Universalist Christians believe that all will be restored to the Father through Jesus Christ eventually. God bless.
Thanks Shana...

You're talking to a guy who was raised Catholic and after
reading the bible, considers himself a "non denominational Christian"
and is also new to this forum...

Care to elaborate for a dummy?
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Old 02-26-2008, 04:21 PM
 
1,686 posts, read 2,413,659 times
Reputation: 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheComputerGuy View Post
Thanks Shana...

You're talking to a guy who was raised Catholic and after
reading the bible, considers himself a "non denominational Christian"
and is also new to this forum...

Care to elaborate for a dummy?
Hi there ComputerGuy....We are all dummies who are hopefully making our way into fresh horizons of our God. There are many wonderful works that can be of assistance in answering some of your deepest questions and concerns regarding the Restitution of all things, as spoken by the mouths of the prophets from the earliest ages. I do not wish to derail this thread on this subject, but if you visit the link Shana began in this regard, perhaps we can pursue the subject further.

HERE

The Second Death & The Restitution of All Things

HERE

Christ Triumphant

HERE
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Old 02-26-2008, 04:57 PM
 
Location: Somewhere! :)
1,989 posts, read 3,951,805 times
Reputation: 373
Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdy_56 View Post
Hi there ComputerGuy....We are all dummies who are hopefully making our way into fresh horizons of our God. There are many wonderful works that can be of assistance in answering some of your deepest questions and concerns regarding the Restitution of all things, as spoken by the mouths of the prophets from the earliest ages. I do not wish to derail this thread on this subject, but if you visit the link Shana began in this regard, perhaps we can pursue the subject further.

HERE

The Second Death & The Restitution of All Things

HERE

Christ Triumphant

HERE
I began to peruse those links, but have to shut this
machine down in minutes for dinner now...
And... I'll read them in full tomorrow...

But from the little bit I saw, can I take that to mean
that the "Christian Universalist" view denotes
that we ALL go to Heaven since Jesus died for our sins
regardless of where we're at?

Obviously I need to read the full text of those links
before I say such a thing, but the 5 minute version looked that way.

I'll be back tomorrow for a more complete viewing of those links.

Thanks!

M.
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Old 02-26-2008, 06:25 PM
 
1,686 posts, read 2,413,659 times
Reputation: 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheComputerGuy View Post
I began to peruse those links, but have to shut this
machine down in minutes for dinner now...
And... I'll read them in full tomorrow...

But from the little bit I saw, can I take that to mean
that the "Christian Universalist" view denotes
that we ALL go to Heaven since Jesus died for our sins
regardless of where we're at?

Obviously I need to read the full text of those links
before I say such a thing, but the 5 minute version looked that way.

I'll be back tomorrow for a more complete viewing of those links.

Thanks!

M.
My friend, you will not explore the full text (a complete viewing) of the last two links in a short period of time. The effort, however, will be worth the time expended.

In short, we believe that from God everything comes, through Him everything exists, and in Him everything ends. Nothing but nothing, however, ends in Him without transformation and change. Ultimately, the all is reconciled to God, and becomes a part of either the new heavens, or the new earth. Jesus Christ declares that in the Father's house there are many dimensions of dwelling..."in My Father's house are many abodes". The Kingdom of God reaches far, far beyond simply going to heaven, but we do believe that the scope of Adam's disobedience, and the resulting despair, is exceeded excessively by the Last Adam's obedience.
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Old 02-26-2008, 06:43 PM
 
Location: New England
8,155 posts, read 18,240,214 times
Reputation: 3279
Birdy and Shana, I unfortunatley do not have endless hours to spend on the computer with a small business, family and life to contend with along with a mother inlaw having cancer surgery in the morning. Nor do I work at a computer all day where I can ignore my work responsibilities and post all day. (Not that I think anyone here does that. )

I just came on here for a few minutes before having my dinner at 8pm at night after a 13 hour work day...and didn't expect to bump into 140 Greek quotes and 35 breakdown quotes of my post.

I do not have the time to get into it at the level you two seem to have the time for right now.

I will revisit this when I have the time. I'm sorry.

Short answer, you both are confusing the will regarding salvation with providence and grace. Basically you're all over the place with Arminianism, Palgianism, Sem-Palgianism, aspects of Calvinism and Universalist theology all mixed into one confused bag IMHO.

It will take a while to sort it out...but I have a sneaky suspicion that you really don't want to hear anything besides that which you "believe" you see in the scripture anyway.

Peace and Grace to you...gotta go, dinner is on!
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