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Old 02-21-2011, 05:45 AM
 
9,804 posts, read 1,221,067 times
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“Faith Only” or Obedient Faith ?
“For; by grace have you been saved through faith and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works that no man should glory” (Ephesians 2:8-9).
There is no doubt. We are saved by grace. There is nothing we can do to earn our way into heaven. Under the Old Testament, Jews could not be saved by the works of the Mosaic Law. Under the New Testament, we are not saved by our works of merit. But does this mean we don’t need to obey the gospel? Do we not need to obey the commands of Jesus? Is obedience to God trying to earn salvation?
“Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in Heaven” (Matthew 7:21).
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" (Hebrews 5:9).
"And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;" (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9).
“Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. (James 2: 21-24)
Abraham was justified by faith, but his faith included (action) obedience to God. Faith and obedience go hand in hand. They are inseparable. Obedience to the will of God is very prominent in scripture, yet it is blatantly disregarded. Read Hebrews 11, the great faith chapter. Every example given is one of faith accompanied by action or obedience to God. We are commanded by Jesus and later his apostles to Repent, Believe, Confess and be Baptized. These are not works of human merit. These are works of God. The scriptures bear this out.
The disciples inquired of the Lord: “What must we do, that we may work the works of God?”Jesus responded: “This is the work of God that you believe on him who he has sent” (John 6:28-29).
This “work of God” required a human response, that of believing. If all “works” are excluded from the plan of salvation, faith itself would be eliminated, for it is identified as a work. Repentance is a work of God, a divine gift. Repentance is caused by the working of the Holy Spirit who convicts the sinner. We are commanded by Jesus to Repent.

“Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? (Rom.2:4)
Baptism is a work of God. It is not a work of man. Nowhere does scripture say that baptism is a work of human merit.
“Having been buried with him in baptism, wherein you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead” (Col. 2:12).
“he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit” whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.” (Titus 3: 5-7)
The “washing of regeneration” (most scholars believe this is an allusion to baptism) is a work of God. Active faith which humbly expresses itself in obedience to God does not constitute salvation “of ourselves.”

I pray that we can debate this respectfully, digging deep into God's word, with an open mind and heart.
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Old 02-21-2011, 06:54 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 7,000,788 times
Reputation: 1617
Every person ever born has a disobedient nature that must be killed. I was just thinking about how even death has a good purpose just before I logged on and read your thread. How horrible heaven would be if any sin, hatred, and rebellion were allowed there. All will be judged according to their works. When God's judgments are in the earth, man will learn righteousness and it will flow down like water....

“Seek Me that You May Live”

1Hear this word which I take up for you as a dirge, O house of Israel:

2She has fallen, she will not rise again—
The virgin Israel.
She lies neglected on her land;
There is none to raise her up.


3For thus says the Lord GOD,
“The city which goes forth a thousand strong
Will have a hundred left,
And the one which goes forth a hundred strong
Will have ten left to the house of Israel.”



4For thus says the LORD to the house of Israel,
“Seek Me that you may live.



5“But do not resort to Bethel
And do not come to Gilgal,
Nor cross over to Beersheba;
For Gilgal will certainly go into captivity
And Bethel will come to trouble.



6“Seek the LORD that you may live,
Or He will break forth like a fire, O house of Joseph,
And it will consume with none to quench it for Bethel,



7For those who turn justice into wormwood
And cast righteousness down to the earth.”



8He who made the Pleiades and Orion
And changes deep darkness into morning,
Who also darkens day into night,
Who calls for the waters of the sea
And pours them out on the surface of the earth,
The LORD is His name.



9It is He who flashes forth with destruction upon the strong,
So that destruction comes upon the fortress.



10They hate him who reproves in the gate,
And they abhor him who speaks with integrity.



11Therefore because you impose heavy rent on the poor
And exact a tribute of grain from them,
Though you have built houses of well-hewn stone,
Yet you will not live in them;
You have planted pleasant vineyards,
yet you will not drink their wine.



12For I know your transgressions are many
and your sins are great,
You who distress the righteous and accept bribes
And turn aside the poor in the gate.



13Therefore at such a time the prudent person keeps silent,
for it is an evil time.



14Seek good and not evil, that you may live;
And thus may the LORD God of hosts be with you,
Just as you have said!



15Hate evil, love good,
And establish justice in the gate!
Perhaps the LORD God of hosts
May be gracious to the remnant of Joseph.



16Therefore thus says the LORD God of hosts, the Lord,
“There is wailing in all the plazas,
And in all the streets they say, ‘Alas! Alas!’
They also call the farmer to mourning
And professional mourners to lamentation.



17“And in all the vineyards there is wailing,
Because I will pass through the midst of you,” says the LORD.



18Alas, you who are longing for the day of the LORD,
For what purpose will the day of the LORD be to you?
It will be darkness and not light;



19As when a man flees from a lion
And a bear meets him,
Or goes home, leans his hand against the wall
And a snake bites him.



20Will not the day of the LORD be darkness instead of light,
Even gloom with no brightness in it?



21“I hate, I reject your festivals,
Nor do I delight in your solemn assemblies.



22“Even though you offer up to Me burnt offerings and your grain offerings,
I will not accept them;
And I will not even look at the peace offerings of your fatlings.



23“Take away from Me the noise of your songs;
I will not even listen to the sound of your harps.



24“But let justice roll down like waters
And righteousness like an ever-flowing stream.



25“Did you present Me with sacrifices and grain offerings in the wilderness for forty years, O house of Israel?



26“You also carried along Sikkuth your king and Kiyyun, your images, the star of your gods which you made for yourselves.


27“Therefore, I will make you go into exile beyond Damascus,” says the LORD, whose name is the God of hosts.



“Those at Ease in Zion”

1Woe to those who are at ease in Zion
And to those who feel secure in the mountain of Samaria,
The distinguished men of the foremost of nations,
To whom the house of Israel comes.



2Go over to Calneh and look,
And go from there to Hamath the great,
Then go down to Gath of the Philistines.
Are they better than these kingdoms,
Or is their territory greater than yours?



3Do you put off the day of calamity,
And would you bring near the seat of violence?



4Those who recline on beds of ivory
And sprawl on their couches,
And eat lambs from the flock
And calves from the midst of the stall,



5Who improvise to the sound of the harp,
And like David have composed songs for themselves,



6Who drink wine from sacrificial bowls
While they anoint themselves with the finest of oils
,
Yet they have not grieved over the ruin of Joseph.



7Therefore, they will now go into exile at the head of the exiles,
And the sprawlers’ banqueting will pass away.



8The Lord GOD has sworn by Himself, the LORD God of hosts has declared:
“I loathe the arrogance of Jacob,
And detest his citadels;
Therefore I will deliver up the city and all it contains.”


9And it will be, if ten men are left in one house, they will die.



10Then one’s uncle, or his undertaker, will lift him up to carry out his bones from the house, and he will say to the one who is in the innermost part of the house, “Is anyone else with you?” And that one will say, “No one.” Then he will answer, “Keep quiet. For the name of the LORD is not to be mentioned.”



11For behold, the LORD is going to command that the great house be smashed to pieces and the small house to fragments.



12Do horses run on rocks?
Or does one plow them with oxen?
Yet you have turned justice into poison
And the fruit of righteousness into wormwood,



13You who rejoice in Lodebar,
And say, “Have we not by our own strength taken Karnaim for ourselves?”



14“For behold, I am going to raise up a nation against you,
O house of Israel,” declares the LORD God of hosts,
“And they will afflict you from the entrance of Hamath
To the brook of the Arabah.”

Last edited by Heartsong; 02-21-2011 at 07:06 AM..
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Old 02-21-2011, 06:56 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 7,000,788 times
Reputation: 1617
Double posted by accident.
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Old 02-21-2011, 07:00 AM
 
9,804 posts, read 1,221,067 times
Reputation: 765
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
Every person ever born has a disobedient nature that must be killed. I was just thinking about how even death has a good purpose just before I logged on and read your thread. How horrible heaven would be if any sin, hatred, and rebellion were allowed there. All will be judged according to their works. When God's judgments are in the earth, man will learn righteousness and it will flow down like water....

“Seek Me that You May Live”

1Hear this word which I take up for you as a dirge, O house of Israel:

2She has fallen, she will not rise again—
The virgin Israel.
She lies neglected on her land;
There is none to raise her up.


3For thus says the Lord GOD,
“The city which goes forth a thousand strong
Will have a hundred left,
And the one which goes forth a hundred strong
Will have ten left to the house of Israel.”



4For thus says the LORD to the house of Israel,
“Seek Me that you may live.



5“But do not resort to Bethel
And do not come to Gilgal,
Nor cross over to Beersheba;
For Gilgal will certainly go into captivity
And Bethel will come to trouble.



6“Seek the LORD that you may live,
Or He will break forth like a fire, O house of Joseph,
And it will consume with none to quench it for Bethel,



7For those who turn justice into wormwood
And cast righteousness down to the earth.”



8He who made the Pleiades and Orion
And changes deep darkness into morning,
Who also darkens day into night,
Who calls for the waters of the sea
And pours them out on the surface of the earth,
The LORD is His name.



9It is He who flashes forth with destruction upon the strong,
So that destruction comes upon the fortress.



10They hate him who reproves in the gate,
And they abhor him who speaks with integrity.



11Therefore because you impose heavy rent on the poor
And exact a tribute of grain from them,
Though you have built houses of well-hewn stone,
Yet you will not live in them;
You have planted pleasant vineyards,
yet you will not drink their wine.



12For I know your transgressions are many
and your sins are great,
You who distress the righteous and accept bribes
And turn aside the poor in the gate.



13Therefore at such a time the prudent person keeps silent,
for it is an evil time.



14Seek good and not evil, that you may live;
And thus may the LORD God of hosts be with you,
Just as you have said!



15Hate evil, love good,
And establish justice in the gate!
Perhaps the LORD God of hosts
May be gracious to the remnant of Joseph.



16Therefore thus says the LORD God of hosts, the Lord,
“There is wailing in all the plazas,
And in all the streets they say, ‘Alas! Alas!’
They also call the farmer to mourning
And professional mourners to lamentation.



17“And in all the vineyards there is wailing,
Because I will pass through the midst of you,” says the LORD.



18Alas, you who are longing for the day of the LORD,
For what purpose will the day of the LORD be to you?
It will be darkness and not light;



19As when a man flees from a lion
And a bear meets him,
Or goes home, leans his hand against the wall
And a snake bites him.



20Will not the day of the LORD be darkness instead of light,
Even gloom with no brightness in it?



21“I hate, I reject your festivals,
Nor do I delight in your solemn assemblies.



22“Even though you offer up to Me burnt offerings and your grain offerings,
I will not accept them;
And I will not even look at the peace offerings of your fatlings.



23“Take away from Me the noise of your songs;
I will not even listen to the sound of your harps.



24“But let justice roll down like waters
And righteousness like an ever-flowing stream.



25“Did you present Me with sacrifices and grain offerings in the wilderness for forty years, O house of Israel?



26“You also carried along Sikkuth your king and Kiyyun, your images, the star of your gods which you made for yourselves.


27“Therefore, I will make you go into exile beyond Damascus,” says the LORD, whose name is the God of hosts.



“Those at Ease in Zion”

1Woe to those who are at ease in Zion
And to those who feel secure in the mountain of Samaria,
The distinguished men of the foremost of nations,
To whom the house of Israel comes.



2Go over to Calneh and look,
And go from there to Hamath the great,
Then go down to Gath of the Philistines.
Are they better than these kingdoms,
Or is their territory greater than yours?



3Do you put off the day of calamity,
And would you bring near the seat of violence?



4Those who recline on beds of ivory
And sprawl on their couches,
And eat lambs from the flock
And calves from the midst of the stall,



5Who improvise to the sound of the harp,
And like David have composed songs for themselves,



6Who drink wine from sacrificial bowls
While they anoint themselves with the finest of oils,
Yet they have not grieved over the ruin of Joseph.



7Therefore, they will now go into exile at the head of the exiles,
And the sprawlers’ banqueting will pass away.



8The Lord GOD has sworn by Himself, the LORD God of hosts has declared:
“I loathe the arrogance of Jacob,
And detest his citadels;
Therefore I will deliver up the city and all it contains.”


9And it will be, if ten men are left in one house, they will die.



10Then one’s uncle, or his undertaker, will lift him up to carry out his bones from the house, and he will say to the one who is in the innermost part of the house, “Is anyone else with you?” And that one will say, “No one.” Then he will answer, “Keep quiet. For the name of the LORD is not to be mentioned.”



11For behold, the LORD is going to command that the great house be smashed to pieces and the small house to fragments.



12Do horses run on rocks?
Or does one plow them with oxen?
Yet you have turned justice into poison
And the fruit of righteousness into wormwood,



13You who rejoice in Lodebar,
And say, “Have we not by our own strength taken Karnaim for ourselves?”



14“For behold, I am going to raise up a nation against you,
O house of Israel,” declares the LORD God of hosts,
“And they will afflict you from the entrance of Hamath
To the brook of the Arabah.”
I think you missed the point of my OP. Your response made no sense to me.Please take the time to read it again as I will read yours again. Maybe I missed something.
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Old 02-21-2011, 07:09 AM
 
9,804 posts, read 1,221,067 times
Reputation: 765
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
Double posted by accident.
Okay I think you are saying we will be judged by our works. True! Hoever this is not what my post is talking about. It is saying that "faith alone" does not save us. We must obey the gospel which includes repentance, belief, confession, and baptism.
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Old 02-21-2011, 07:13 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 7,000,788 times
Reputation: 1617
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
Okay I think you are saying we will be judged by our works. True! Hoever this is not what my post is talking about. It is saying that "faith alone" does not save us. We must obey the gospel which includes repentance, belief, confession, and baptism.
It is God alone who saves us. Some will only be saved via destruction. Those who overcome the world and the flesh through Christ in this world will not be hurt by the 2nd death.
Christ came into the world to save sinners. Save them from what? A very painful judgment.
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Old 02-21-2011, 07:17 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,831 posts, read 11,599,941 times
Reputation: 58253
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post

“Faith Only” or Obedient Faith ?

“For; by grace have you been saved through faith and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works that no man should glory” (Ephesians 2:8-9).
There is no doubt. We are saved by grace. There is nothing we can do to earn our way into heaven.
Looks like you answered your own question to me. And as far as the OP, it's very hard to read because it's so jumbled up.....a little separation and highlighting would make it easier to read. I like what Eusebius said in another thread:



Originally posted by Eusebius
Dear jghorton, during the eons or ages God is only saving x amount of people He has already pre-determined who will be saved. The rest cannot believe the gospel because salvation is only by GRACE through the faith God gives. So how could it matter if I preach to one God has not chosen to believe till I'm blue in the face? If they don't see it I move on to the next person.
We don't "teach the lost to reject the gospel." We don't tell anyone it doesn't matter if one does not believe the gospel. IT DOES MATTER! It matters to those who are chosen to be believing.

How can the unbeliever lose everything if they had nothing to get in the first place since God never chose them before the disruption of the world to be believing? So they couldn't lose anything to begin with.


Does this make sense to you?
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Old 02-21-2011, 07:27 AM
 
9,804 posts, read 1,221,067 times
Reputation: 765
[quote=Ilene Wright;17963164][quote]

Looks like you answered your own question to me. And as far as the OP, it's very hard to read because it's so jumbled up.....a little separation and highlighting would make it easier to read. I like what Eusebius said in another thread:



Originally posted by Eusebius
Dear jghorton, during the eons or ages God is only saving x amount of people He has already pre-determined who will be saved. The rest cannot believe the gospel because salvation is only by GRACE through the faith God gives. So how could it matter if I preach to one God has not chosen to believe till I'm blue in the face? If they don't see it I move on to the next person.
We don't "teach the lost to reject the gospel." We don't tell anyone it doesn't matter if one does not believe the gospel. IT DOES MATTER! It matters to those who are chosen to be believing.

How can the unbeliever lose everything if they had nothing to get in the first place since God never chose them before the disruption of the world to be believing? So they couldn't lose anything to begin with.
[i]

I apologize for the way the OP looks. I wrote it in MSWord. My bold face, underlines, separations, and italics did not transfer when I copied/pasted. Is it possible for me to go in an edit the OP? Any help appreciated. I will reread your post again and will respond as soon as I'm done with errands.
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Old 02-21-2011, 07:31 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 6,931,021 times
Reputation: 645
Faith alone does save us, however we reap what we sow, we can suffer great loss yet still be saved.

A persons works are put on trial, not a persons salvation. God promises to save mankind, he does not promise that he will keep man from using his own will to get himself into a heap of trouble.
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Old 02-21-2011, 09:19 AM
 
9,804 posts, read 1,221,067 times
Reputation: 765
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
Faith alone does save us, however we reap what we sow, we can suffer great loss yet still be saved.

Where is the scripture that says faith alone saves? As far as "we reap what we sow" goes, I agree that our works (good deeds, etc.) are how we will be judged. However we are not saved by those works. We are saved by the grace of God and by obedient faith. See my OP for scriptures.

A persons works are put on trial, not a persons salvation. God promises to save mankind, he does not promise that he will keep man from using his own will to get himself into a heap of trouble.
Yes Jesus came to seek and save the lost. He wants all men everywhere to come to Him. Yes it is His grace that saves us but we must obey Him. Again, read my OP and tell me which scripture you disagree with.
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