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Old 11-10-2011, 11:37 AM
 
Location: Canada
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I agree with you that all will be brought to life in Christ. But I understand this from a different perspective. Here is how I understand the text. Paul, in 1 Cor 15:22 is describing the flesh, the natural man, that is dying in Adam. And this includes all men, as stated here:

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

And, the Greek text in 1 Co 15:22, bears this out, here:

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die (αποθνησκουσιν), even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

For as in Adam all are dying (αποθνησκουσιν, Greek present tense, indicative mood). Paul is telling us that it's happening now to the flesh, and natural man. That, or rather this part of man, will never be brought to life, nor was it ever meant to, but forever remains dying (present tense) in Adam.

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

If you look at what Jesus told Martha, he was speaking of the part that is alive "liveth" (present tense), and believing "believeth" (present tense). Obviously, this is speaking of the new spirit and heart of those who are born of the Spirit. That is what will never die. Nor has it ever been dead (corrupt), and I agree with you concerning that.

Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

If we read what takes place during re-birth of the Spirit, the old heart and spirit are removed, not repaired or fixed, or re-made from the old. But rather a new heart and spirit replace the old "stony" heart and spirit, that was corrupt:

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.


As Katie asked, I will move this to a new thread in order to keep hers on target.

I guess it depend on what death we are speaking on Storm. If you are talking about a mortal death I can agree with you here.

However if you are talking about a spiritual death, that is the death of our old man, I disagree.

The death of the old man only comes from the LIFE of Christ within us.

If those scriptures are speaking of a spiritual death then it is in Adam that the old man nature is destroyed and not in Christ, which IMO is contrary to scripture.

Last edited by Miss Blue; 11-10-2011 at 07:32 PM.. Reason: change thread title
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Old 11-10-2011, 01:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
As Katie asked, I will move this to a new thread in order to keep hers on target.

I guess it depend on what death we are speaking on Storm. If you are talking about a mortal death I can agree with you here.

However if you are talking about a spiritual death, that is the death of our old man, I disagree.

The death of the old man only comes from the LIFE of Christ within us.

If those scriptures are speaking of a spiritual death then it is in Adam that the old man nature is destroyed and not in Christ, which IMO is contrary to scripture.
Here is how I see it presented in the scriptures:

Adam disobeyed God, in the Garden. The consequences of that disobedience was death. It was a spiritual death.

Gen 2:17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.'

Adam represented the human race when he sinned. Some refer to this as the Federal Headship of Adam. Scripture calls it: being "In Adam":

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Consequently, when Adam sinned, all did sin. As such, being imputed (or reckoned) with that sin brings with it spiritual death and condemnation, as scripture tells us here:

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

So that when we are born into this world, we bear the image and likeness of Adam, that is, spiritual death and condemnation.

Do you agree with this part so far?

Last edited by Miss Blue; 11-10-2011 at 07:36 PM.. Reason: changed thread title and orphaned your request OK? :)
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Old 11-10-2011, 06:39 PM
 
Location: Canada
6,644 posts, read 4,017,292 times
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Quote:
Here is how I see it presented in the scriptures:

Adam disobeyed God, in the Garden. The consequences of that disobedience was death. It was a spiritual death.

Gen 2:17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.'

Adam represented the human race when he sinned. Some refer to this as the Federal Headship of Adam. Scripture calls it: being "In Adam":


1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Consequently, when Adam sinned, all did sin. As such, being imputed (or reckoned) with that sin brings with it spiritual death and condemnation, as scripture tells us here:

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

So that when we are born into this world, we bear the image and likeness of Adam, that is, spiritual death and condemnation.

Do you agree with this part so far?
Storm is that not imputing the sins of the father unto the sons? I don't see Adam as the federal head but rather as the collective human race.

Just as Christ is a many membered body, so to is Adam a many membered body.

Last edited by Miss Blue; 11-10-2011 at 07:34 PM.. Reason: changed title for you and deleted reference to it OK??
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Old 11-10-2011, 09:29 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Storm is that not imputing the sins of the father unto the sons? I don't see Adam as the federal head but rather as the collective human race.

Just as Christ is a many membered body, so to is Adam a many membered body.
Within the context of Ezekiel, no, because there is no covenant relationship being expressed between the parties (fathers and sons). If there was, sins could be imputed.

With regards to Adam, yes, because a covenant relationship existed between Adam and God in the Garden, often described as the covenant of works. Adam, being our Federal Head (representative), made us a partaker of that covenant, including it's consequences, namely: death and condemnation, for it's transgression.

The idea of Federal Headship is really the same concept whether speaking of Adam or Christ, and I think this is what you actually mean when you use the phrase "membered body" (???), though I'm not familiar with that term.
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Old 11-11-2011, 06:52 AM
 
Location: Canada
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Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Within the context of Ezekiel, no, because there is no covenant relationship being expressed between the parties (fathers and sons). If there was, sins could be imputed.

With regards to Adam, yes, because a covenant relationship existed between Adam and God in the Garden, often described as the covenant of works. Adam, being our Federal Head (representative), made us a partaker of that covenant, including it's consequences, namely: death and condemnation, for it's transgression.

The idea of Federal Headship is really the same concept whether speaking of Adam or Christ, and I think this is what you actually mean when you use the phrase "membered body" (???), though I'm not familiar with that term.



Storm this is were I get the many membered body from.


1 Corinthians 12:12
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

So if your referring to Adam as the head of the body of the human race I can agree with that.


So are you then saying that in Adam all died a spiritual death, that is to say all men died in spirit? And all men's spirit will be made alive in Christ?

Here is the problem I have with that Storm. It still means that we/mankind were born a sinner, we/mankind are born spiritually dead, which to me is still saying that we are paying for the sins of our father or head.

So a few questions arise, do those who are whole need a physician? Can man be born into this world spiritually alive?
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Old 11-11-2011, 07:37 AM
 
Location: RV Park
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I think instead of seeing it as sins passed on (from the first Adam), we should credit our condition as being God's desire for us - so that we could be redeemed gloriously. God has bound all men in disobedience, so He could have mercy on all (Rom 11:32).

If some were innocent, He would be showing favoritism; instead we're all the same.
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Old 11-11-2011, 08:07 AM
 
Location: Canada
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Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
I think instead of seeing it as sins passed on (from the first Adam), we should credit our condition as being God's desire for us - so that we could be redeemed gloriously. God has bound all men in disobedience, so He could have mercy on all (Rom 11:32).

If some were innocent, He would be showing favoritism; instead we're all the same.


L.E. God does not desire man to live in sin or be disobedient, Jesus shows us this as he came to destroy the works of the devil. To say God desires us to sin is the same as saying the devils work and Gods desires are one and the same thing and Jesus came to destroy what God desires.

I believe all men when they are born babies are born innocent, for they have yet to do good or evil.

I know which scripture you are referring to LE, so my question to you is did God bind all men in disobedience before or after Adam sinned?
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Old 11-11-2011, 08:26 AM
 
Location: Canada
6,644 posts, read 4,017,292 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
I think instead of seeing it as sins passed on (from the first Adam), we should credit our condition as being God's desire for us - so that we could be redeemed gloriously. God has bound all men in disobedience, so He could have mercy on all (Rom 11:32).

If some were innocent, He would be showing favoritism; instead we're all the same.



L.E. I really don't want to get into this area again as I just finished a long discussion about this with Lego and Bob. Here is the link if you are interested.


http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/1370224-does-god-know-what-you-having.html


God bless
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Old 11-11-2011, 10:42 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,649,365 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Here is how I see it presented in the scriptures:

Adam disobeyed God, in the Garden. The consequences of that disobedience was death. It was a spiritual death.

Gen 2:17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.'

Adam represented the human race when he sinned. Some refer to this as the Federal Headship of Adam. Scripture calls it: being "In Adam":

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Consequently, when Adam sinned, all did sin. As such, being imputed (or reckoned) with that sin brings with it spiritual death and condemnation, as scripture tells us here:

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

So that when we are born into this world, we bear the image and likeness of Adam, that is, spiritual death and condemnation.

Do you agree with this part so far?
That is correct, when we are born we are born as members of the body of Adam and therefore are born with Adam's same judgement (which is to toil and die). In fact this is seen in the death of a baby. A baby could not die unless it had sin at birth. For the wages of sin is death.

This is why Jesus would have been born of man's natural seed then Jesus would have been born under the same condemnation. Therefore, the redeemer could not be born of the same seed which is why our redeemer was born of God via a virgin.
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Old 11-11-2011, 12:57 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,487,442 times
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Originally Posted by trettep View Post
That is correct, when we are born we are born as members of the body of Adam and therefore are born with Adam's same judgement (which is to toil and die). In fact this is seen in the death of a baby. A baby could not die unless it had sin at birth. For the wages of sin is death.

This is why Jesus would have been born of man's natural seed then Jesus would have been born under the same condemnation. Therefore, the redeemer could not be born of the same seed which is why our redeemer was born of God via a virgin.
Dear trettep, Romans 5:12 does not say we die because we sin. Rather it says we sin because we are dying. It is the process of death operating in us that causes us to miss the mark.

Alabama Storm
, it was not sin that we inherited but rather death according to Romans 5:12. It was death that was passed through into all mankind.

Also, in Genesis God tells Adam that dying is a process:

Gen 2:17 Yet from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you are not to be eating from it, for in the day you eat from it, to die shall you be dying.

God then tells Adam what is meant by "to die shall you be dying" by showing it as a process:

"And thorns and weeds shall it sprout for you, and you shall eat the herbage of the field. In the sweat of your face shall you eat your bread, till your return to the ground, for from it are you taken, for soil you are, and to soil are you returning.
(Gen 3:18-19)
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