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Old 11-22-2011, 05:33 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kids in america_ View Post
Faith is believing and doing God‘s will. In order to do so, however 'god' has to work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for 'his' good pleasure. I think we are all in agreement that 'god' is behind it all.
Absolutely!

You said it perfectly. Faith is doing. Faith without doing is dead faith, and does not please God.

Katie
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Old 11-22-2011, 05:53 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Yes, we are in accord...Faith is not 'and doing Hawyaw's will'...That is a seperate issue...Faith is simply believing what He says as fact not wishful thinking...
We are talking about different degrees of ‘faith’. Just to make things clear, the ‘faith’ I am alluding to is obedient faith. The true answer lies in trust and obedience.

Quoting James 2:17-24:

Quote:
Jas 2:17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.
Jas 2:18 But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.
Jas 2:19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe--and shudder.
Jas 2:20 Do you want to be shown, you senseless person, that faith apart from works is barren?
Jas 2:21 Was not our ancestor Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?
Jas 2:22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought to completion by the works.
Jas 2:23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness," and he was called the friend of God.
Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
James highlighted that, how did we know Abraham had faith? Because ‘god’ told him to offer his son Isaac on the alter and Abraham brought the knife and was ready to do it. Abraham proved his 'faith'.
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Old 11-22-2011, 06:35 AM
 
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WHAT IS REGENERATION?

The Greek word translated as "regeneration" is paliggenesia. It is a compound word of palin, which means "again," and genesis, which means birth. Thus it literally means born again, a rebirth, or a new birth.

Titus 3: 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

WHAT IS BORN AGAIN?

Greek words: gennao, which means to give birth, and anothen, which means again in the sense of starting over or starting from the top.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Regeneration and born again are similar phrases and refer to the same thing.

WHAT IS JUSTIFICATION?

Justification is the process of being made just. Someone who is justified has been made Just. Someone who is just is without blame

Justification is the forgiveness of Sins.

"Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man [Jesus] is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things..." (Acts 13:38-39).

CONCLUSION

Our calvinist friends would have us believe that we are saved through the washing of regeneration before we are justified. How is it possible to be saved before we are justified? If justification is the forgiveness of sins, then calvinism says we are saved while we still have sin.

Romans 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have[a] peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Calvinism also limits the power of God. They have the sinner so depraved and so dead that God could not make a gospel that could reach them. The gospel is ineffective according to calvinism.

Every christian knows that the gospel is God's power for salvation, and that sinners are able to hear, believe and obey that gospel. Search the book of Acts, and you will find that not one time was a sinner told that he could not obey the gospel without the direct work of the Holy Spirit. If we are saved by the washing of regeneration before we have faith, then the Bible would say it very clearly, but it does not.

Katie
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Old 11-22-2011, 07:19 AM
 
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QUESTIONS

John 1:12 "to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God..."

When were they given the right to become children of God? Was it before they believed or after? What does it say?

Gal 3:2 "I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?"

Did these people receive the Spirit before believing or after? What does it imply? And how would a Calvinist answer Paul's question if he had been one of the Galatians? Would he have said, "Neither! I received the Spirit before I believed. I didn't receive it by observing the law nor by believing!"

Gal 3:26 "You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus,"

So how could a person be born of God before believing? A person is born of God through faith - just as John 1:12 indicated.

Ephesians 1:13 "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,"

When did they receive the Holy Spirit? Was it after they believed or before? What does it say?

Katie
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Old 11-22-2011, 07:39 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
QUESTIONS

John 1:12 "to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God..."

When were they given the right to become children of God? Was it before they believed or after? What does it say?

Gal 3:2 "I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?"

Did these people receive the Spirit before believing or after? What does it imply? And how would a Calvinist answer Paul's question if he had been one of the Galatians? Would he have said, "Neither! I received the Spirit before I believed. I didn't receive it by observing the law nor by believing!"

Gal 3:26 "You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus,"

So how could a person be born of God before believing? A person is born of God through faith - just as John 1:12 indicated.

Ephesians 1:13 "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,"

When did they receive the Holy Spirit? Was it after they believed or before? What does it say?

Katie
Katie what do you mean by the holy spirit?
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Old 11-22-2011, 09:25 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kids in america_ View Post
Katie what do you mean by the holy spirit?
I think we had this conversation already in another thread at an earlier time. I believe I answered you then. I don't remember which thread it was. Maybe your memory is better than mine, and you can go back and reread our conversation.

I'm not trying to be disagreeable. The topic is not the Holy Spirit. It is whether regeneration precedes faith or not. I'm trying to stick to the topic.

Katie
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Old 11-22-2011, 09:59 AM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
Absolutely!

You said it perfectly. Faith is doing. Faith without doing is dead faith, and does not please God.

Katie
I think it's worth nothing that the words "faith" and "faithful" are closely related. Sometimes we seem to forget that. I don't see how a person can claim to have "faith in Christ" without being "faithful to Christ."
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Old 11-22-2011, 10:20 AM
 
666 posts, read 257,378 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
I think we had this conversation already in another thread at an earlier time. I believe I answered you then. I don't remember which thread it was. Maybe your memory is better than mine, and you can go back and reread our conversation.

I'm not trying to be disagreeable. The topic is not the Holy Spirit. It is whether regeneration precedes faith or not. I'm trying to stick to the topic.

Katie
I am not trying to derail your thread. But to me it is pretty useless to have a discussion on “faith”, “regeneration”, being “born again” and “holy spirit” without precisely defining such terms. Presenting concise and precise definitions of terms is critical to prevent equivocation.
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Old 11-22-2011, 11:33 AM
 
2,637 posts, read 1,043,839 times
Reputation: 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by kids in america_ View Post
I am not trying to derail your thread. But to me it is pretty useless to have a discussion on “faith”, “regeneration”, being “born again” and “holy spirit” without precisely defining such terms. Presenting concise and precise definitions of terms is critical to prevent equivocation.
Then I suggest you give whatever definitions you think are necessary to the discussion. I welcome them. If anyone disagrees with you, they will let you know. I already defined regeneration, born again, and justification. Feel free to add anything other terms you want. You won't be derailing the thread. If you get off topic, someone will let you know. Admin has been pretty good about staying on top of things.

Katie
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Old 11-22-2011, 11:35 AM
 
2,637 posts, read 1,043,839 times
Reputation: 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I think it's worth nothing that the words "faith" and "faithful" are closely related. Sometimes we seem to forget that. I don't see how a person can claim to have "faith in Christ" without being "faithful to Christ."
Good point!

Katie
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