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Sonship does not happen automatically. In the Jewish family, if a man had a son, the son had to spend many years under tutors learning about his father's business. Yes, he was the heir, but he did not have the maturity or the knowledge to run his father's business. At a certain age, or at a certain point, when the father felt that the son could be trusted to conduct business the same way that he did, then the son was 'adopted' and given authority to act on behalf of the father and everyone who he did business with was to treat the son's word in the business just as he would the father. This is what I have read is what the Jewish meaning of adoption was. Yes, of course, there were times when they would have to raise the child or children of a deceased or sick relative or perhaps an orphan who had no one, but mainly it meant that the son was given authority.
Sonship is about overcoming the flesh and walking in the Spirit. This does not happen immediately. I don't think we can do it by our will or our efforts, but certainly there is cooperation. But the new birth itself? I believe the Bible tells us that it is not by our will that we are reborn but by the will of the Father, when it is His good pleasure to do so.
Our God is an Awesome God...
Thank you for your post. Good information. I believe that sonship is given to us when we are regenerated. However, I've never heard that it is an ongoing process. I know sanctification is ongoing. I'll look up scriptures on sonship and get back to you.
I disagree with what you said about our rebirth. You are saying we have no free will to choose God. I agree that He chooses everyone, but then it is left to the individual to accept or reject His offer of grace. You are taking away all personal responsibility, which the Bible does not teach.
John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
According to John 3:36, a sinner must receive life before he can believe. According to Jesus and John, a man must believe before he can receive life.
Ephesians 1:13 "In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,"
According to this verse, sinners are active participants (after you heard the word, having believed). The hearing comes first, then the believing, then the sealing. The sealing of the Spirit takes place after faith is excersized.
If regeneration takes place prior to faith, at what point do they become sons? Is not regeneration synonymous with sonship? Is it possible to have an unbelieving and unsealed son without the earnest of his inheritance?
Galatians 3:6 says: "ye are all the children (sons) of God by faith in Christ Jesus."
In John 1:12, the power to become a son of God was granted to as many as received Him.
Sonship in Scripture is always the consequence of faith.
God's work of regeneration takes place in response to faith!
Regeneration before faith cannot be supported by the truth of Scripture.
Katie
Genesis 6:5: "The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." Genesis 8:21: "And when the LORD smelled the pleasing aroma, the LORD said in his heart, "I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man’s heart is evil from his youth. Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done. Job 15:14: What is man, that he can be pure? Or he who is born of a woman, that he can be righteous?
Job 15:15: Behold, God puts no trust in his holy ones, and the heavens are not pure in his sight; how much less one who is abominable and corrupt, a man who drinks injustice like water! Job 25:4-6: How then can man be in the right before God? How can he who is born of woman be pure? 5 Behold, even the moon is not bright, and the stars are not pure in his eyes; 6 how much less man, who is a maggot, and the son of man, who is a worm!" Psalms 51:5: "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me."
Psalms 58:3: "The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies." Ecclesiastes 7:20: "Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins."
Ecclesiastes 9:3: "This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead." Jeremiah 17:9: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?"
Jeremiah 13:23: (NIV): "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil." Isaiah 64:6 "We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away" Isaiah 64:7 "There is no one who calls upon your name, who rouses himself to take hold of you, for you have hidden your face from us and have made us melt in the hand of our iniquities." Isaiah 64:8 "But now, O LORD, you are our Father; we are the clay, and you are our potter; we are all the work of your hand." Mark 7:21-23: "For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person." John 3:19: "And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil."
John 6:44: "[Jesus said,] 'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.'"
John 6:64-65: "[Jesus said,] 'But there are some of you who do not believe.' (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, 'This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.'"
John 8:34: "Jesus answered them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin.'" Romans 3:10-11: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God."
Romans 8:7-8: "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God." 1 Corinthians 2:14: "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned." Ephesians 2:1-3: "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience - among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind." (our depravity being emphasised in the concept of being "dead"; only something external -i.e. God- can give a dead man life) Titus 3:3: "For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another."
There is more here is you are truly intereted in all Truth... - Total depravity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I do hope there are some logic marbles rolling around up there...
The scriptures teach that a person must believe to be saved. The apostle John says the purpose for his writing the gospel is that you may believe. Faith comes from hearing and reading the gospel. There is no scriptural evidence for a person being regenerated before faith. No scripture says you must be regenerated in order to hear the gospel.
John 20:31 "But these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name."
Katie
John is here encouraging believers...The Scriptures also state that man is incapable, in his natural state, to discern Truth...So, if this is true, then how can he believe the Gospel, which is Truth?...Faith comes from hearing (not and reading, where does it say that in the Scriptures), and hearing from the Word of Hawyaw...
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Sonship does not happen automatically. In the Jewish family, if a man had a son, the son had to spend many years under tutors learning about his father's business. Yes, he was the heir, but he did not have the maturity or the knowledge to run his father's business. At a certain age, or at a certain point, when the father felt that the son could be trusted to conduct business the same way that he did, then the son was 'adopted' and given authority to act on behalf of the father and everyone who he did business with was to treat the son's word in the business just as he would the father. This is what I have read is what the Jewish meaning of adoption was. Yes, of course, there were times when they would have to raise the child or children of a deceased or sick relative or perhaps an orphan who had no one, but mainly it meant that the son was given authority.
Sonship is about overcoming the flesh and walking in the Spirit. This does not happen immediately. I don't think we can do it by our will or our efforts, but certainly there is cooperation. But the new birth itself? I believe the Bible tells us that it is not by our will that we are reborn but by the will of the Father, when it is His good pleasure to do so.
Our God is an Awesome God...
Adoption
There is no formal procedure of adoption in Jewish law. Adoption as it exists in civil law is irrelevant, because civil adoption is essentially a transfer of title from one parent to another, and in Jewish law, parents do not own their children. However, Judaism does have certain laws that are relevant in circumstances where a child is raised by someone other than the birth parents.
In most ways, the adoptive parents are to the child as any birth parent would be. The Talmud says that he who raises someone else's child is regarded as if he had actually brought him into the world physically. For those who cannot have children of their own, raising adoptive children satisfies the obligation to be fruitful and multiply. The child may be formally named (see above) as the child of the adoptive parents, owes the adoptive parents the same duty of respect as he would a birth parent, and observes formal mourning for the adoptive parents as he would for birth parents.
Matters relevant to the child's status are determined by the status of the birth parents, not by that of the adoptive parents. The child's status as a Kohein, a Levi, a Jew, and/or a firstborn, are all determined by reference to the birth parents.
This issue of status is particularly important in the case of non-Jewish children adopted by Jews. According to traditional Jewish law, children born of non-Jewish parents are not Jewish unless they are converted, regardless of who raises them or how they were raised. The status as a Jew is more a matter of citizenship than a matter of belief. For more information about this issue, see Who is a Jew?
If Jewish parents adopt a non-Jewish child, the child must be converted. This process is somewhat simpler for an infant than it is for an adult convert, because there is generally no need to try to talk the person out of converting and no need for prior education. It is really more of a formality. The conversion must be approved by a Beit Din (rabbinic court); a circumcision or hatafat dam brit must be performed; the child must be immersed in a kosher mikvah and the parents must commit to educating the child as a Jew. For more details about the process of conversion generally, See Conversion. - Judaism 101: Birth and the First Month of Life
Perhaps it would be best to say that Judaism recognizes all cases of adoption as foster-parenting. Taking someone else’s child into you own home and treating them as your own child is considered a most praiseworthy act. And in a strictly metaphorical (non-legal) sense the Gemara [Sanhedrin 19b] states that anyone who brings up an orphan in his household is considered as if he were the father of the child (just as the biblical Naomi is considered as the “mother” of the son of Ruth and Boaz [see Ruth 4:16-17]). - Sanhedrin 116
Thank you for your post. Good information. I believe that sonship is given to us when we are regenerated. However, I've never heard that it is an ongoing process. I know sanctification is ongoing. I'll look up scriptures on sonship and get back to you.
I disagree with what you said about our rebirth. You are saying we have no free will to choose God. I agree that He chooses everyone, but then it is left to the individual to accept or reject His offer of grace. You are taking away all personal responsibility, which the Bible does not teach.
Katie
If I convinced you that a certain building was going to blow up and disintigrate as soon as YOU stepped into it...Would you indeed still step into that building knowing that it will blow up and disintigrate?...
Judaism has NEVER believed in the doctrine of original sin.
Christians need to remember that our faith and doctrine is based upon the foundation of Judaism. If we deny this, then we deny the very basis of our faith. Given that Jesus was a Jew and all of the apostles were Jews, understanding a little about some of the tenets of Judaism would be beneficial to understanding our own faith. Much of the foundations of Christianity are built on the Jewish faith.
Many churches have accepted the doctrine of original sin or total depravity. So the question should be asked, " "Has Judaism ever believed or embraced the doctrine of original sin?"
If you do some research, you will find that Judaism has never adhered to the doctrine of original sin. Judaism does not believe in the predestination of individuals either. They do believe in free will and moral accountability. They believe man is born morally neutral and not "totally depraved."
There are no sects within Judaism that believe in the doctrine of original sin or total depravity. Judaism has never believed nor embraced the doctrine of original sin.
Who better than the Jews would know about the doctrine of original sin? Yet they deny its existence.
I don't think this is the article I originally read the information in, but it is very interesting.
Taken from it:
"For the anxious longing of the creature waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subject to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth until now. And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons..." (Romans 8:19-23)
....
With these things in mind and heart, let me share with you something about the true scriptural meaning of "adoption" and "sonship" as it applies to the above quoted verse from Romans 8 (our inheritance), and as it can be seen in the life and development of the average Hebrew boy ... and even Jesus Himself!
...
As the above passage of scripture about the sons of God appears to us in English, "sons" could be taken in several different ways, but in the original language, Paul was very careful in his choice of words. For the word "sons" Paul very carefully chose the word "huios" rather than the word "teknion" (which means infant) or "teknon" (which speaks of a child or a youth) because he was not referring to mere children. "Huios" specifically speaks of matured, fully developed sons, or those who have come of age into full maturity. Of the three words, "huios" is the only word that the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to use when he spoke of those to be manifested as sons of God in Romans 8, and it is also the only word that the Holy Spirit inspired the beloved John to use when he referred to the manchild in Revelation chapter 12. Is that possibly because those are one and the same? I think so.
...
In the life of the average Hebrew boy there were three major events which drew broad public attention to him. The first of these events was his "Circumcision," which occurred when he was an infant, at eight days old. This was the moment that he was marked as a "covenant man" in Israel, and was celebrated throughout the community.
The second major event was his "Bar-Mitzvah," which took place as he was about to enter into puberty. The word Bar-Mitzvah actually means "a son accountable," and this signified the time, not only when he was held accountable for keeping the Commandments of God, but also when he was to become an apprentice under his father in the family business. This, too, was celebrated as a very special event in the life of the child, just as it is today.
The third event was what was known as the "Huiothesia," or the (young man's) "adoption ceremony." The word "Huiothesia" means "Son Placement," and indicates the time when a male child reached what was considered to be the age of maturity (somewhere around 30). At this time, the father of the young man would place his hand on the head of his son and openly proclaim, "This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased! I bestow upon him now all of my riches and power and authority (through power of attorney) so that he might act on my behalf in all of my affairs."
Beloved friends, can you see that the three experiences that are described in the life of an Israelite male, and the three stages shown to us in the life of Jesus, are to be spiritually discerned so that we may understand God's enduring process for our own spiritual growth into sons? Can you now understand why Jesus would say to Mary and Joseph at age 12, "Know ye not that I must be about My Father's business?" Can you see that He was proclaiming His just then entered apprenticeship under the Father? At that point Jesus was just entering an 18 year stage of "learning the family business" so to speak. His Sonship ceremony at the Jordan which would "fulfill all righteousness" and launch His glorious Sonship ministry would not be performed until He reached the full stage of "maturity." The Holy Spirit's descent like a dove upon Jesus was in essence the hand of the Father coming upon the Son to proclaim His Sonship ministry! The Father said, "This is My Beloved Son in Whom I AM well pleased!" Many of us have not understood the full ramifications of those words, or that ceremony, until now. But there is now a great light of revelation being shed upon such things in this day.
This is the end of passages I copied and pasted from the linked article.
Why do you hate the idea of baptism so much? Jesus commanded us to make disciples baptizing them. Are you going to deny that too? Jesus, our Lord and Savior, not Atom, not Katie commanded baptism. Yet you question the necessity of it. I will never understand how people can literally hate a command of Jesus Christ. He said it. Do it! Period. No arguments.
Katie
I am either taking what you are saying personally as an attack or I'm just too tired right now. Please accept my apologies if you didn't intend on attacking me.
As far as you question, I DON'T HATE BAPTISM, especially when I attend a Baptist church...now I am laughing out loud. So I am not getting your question. Yes Jesus did command baptism. But baptism shouldn't be conversed with it saving our souls, and to me it sounds like you believe that in order to be saved, you must be baptized, and that's not scriptural at all.
John is here encouraging believers...The Scriptures also state that man is incapable, in his natural state, to discern Truth...So, if this is true, then how can he believe the Gospel, which is Truth?...Faith comes from hearing (not and reading, where does it say that in the Scriptures), and hearing from the Word of Hawyaw...
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Judaism has NEVER believed in the doctrine of original sin.
Christians need to remember that our faith and doctrine is based upon the foundation of Judaism. If we deny this, then we deny the very basis of our faith. Given that Jesus was a Jew and all of the apostles were Jews, understanding a little about some of the tenets of Judaism would be beneficial to understanding our own faith. Much of the foundations of Christianity are built on the Jewish faith.
Many churches have accepted the doctrine of original sin or total depravity. So the question should be asked, " "Has Judaism ever believed or embraced the doctrine of original sin?"
If you do some research, you will find that Judaism has never adhered to the doctrine of original sin. Judaism does not believe in the predestination of individuals either. They do believe in free will and moral accountability. They believe man is born morally neutral and not "totally depraved."
There are no sects within Judaism that believe in the doctrine of original sin or total depravity. Judaism has never believed nor embraced the doctrine of original sin.
Who better than the Jews would know about the doctrine of original sin? Yet they deny its existence.
Katie
Jews don't believe in Hell either...
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