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Old 11-17-2011, 11:14 AM
 
Location: US
10,288 posts, read 3,937,224 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Richard, most people don't have a clue about what election means. And that's a shame. It is really easy to understand. To save myself time and typing, I am going to refer you to this study on calling and election. If you will study it, you might not believe it, but you will get a lot more information then I would have given you.

Bible Doctrine Resource.com » Doctrine of Election and Calling
I can figure it out via the scriptures...
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Old 11-17-2011, 11:15 AM
 
Location: US
10,288 posts, read 3,937,224 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prairieparson View Post
Katie, I think the distinction in faith you are talking about is the difference between heart knowledge and head knowledge. Some describe this as missing heaven by 18", which is the approximate distance from the human heart to their brain.
1. Many believe that Jesus is the Son of God, the Savior of the world, who died for the sins of the whole world, etc. They fully believe all that the Bible teaches intellectually. But this faith does not save.
2. True faith is of the heart. A Christian who has genuine Christian faith is one who trusts in Jesus for their salvation, not their works. They treasure their relationship with Jesus above all others. They trust in God's will is best in their lives and so desire to live by his commandments. They forgive others as God forgave them. However this faith is never perfect. Someone with genuine faith will still at times worry, be afraid, complain about their circumstances, have trouble forgiving. In the Lutheran church, we always say that true Christians are always saints and sinners at the same time. In this life, until we die, Christians are always in need of forgiveness, and by faith Jesus does forgive Christians their sins daily.

Hope this helps.
Where is the heart?...
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Old 11-17-2011, 11:18 AM
 
Location: US
10,288 posts, read 3,937,224 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atomtkirk View Post
okay to speed this up, i'll make an assumption... are you referring to the birth of jacob and esau?

Gen 25:24 When her days to be delivered were fulfilled, behold, there were twins in her womb. 25 Now the first came forth red, all over like a hairy garment; and they named him Esau. 26 Afterward his brother came forth with his hand holding on to Esau’s heel, so his name was called Jacob; and Isaac was sixty years old when she gave birth to them.

if this is not what you are referring to, please tell me. It is, afterall, based on an ASSUMPTION.

i realize that things happen very soon after other things, at times, but there is an order to things. My original question about this was addressing the fact that you made a contradictory statement.
It is all about perspective...On what day where they born?...
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Old 11-17-2011, 11:22 AM
 
Location: US
10,288 posts, read 3,937,224 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saved33 View Post
I'm guessing Richard1965 is referring to Genesis 25:21-23 (possibly as well to Malachi 1 and Romans 9) - concerning God's sovereign choice in regards to Jacob and Esau.

21Isaac prayed to the Lord on behalf of his wife, because she was barren. The Lord answered his prayer, and his wife Rebekah became pregnant. 22The babies jostled each other within her, and she said, “Why is this happening to me?” So she went to inquire of the Lord.
23The Lord said to her,
“Two nations are in your womb,
and two peoples from within you will be separated;
one people will be stronger than the other,
and the older will serve the younger.”
(Genesis 25)

Esau was the first born, Jacob was the second born. But in God's sovereignty He brought about the older serving the younger. Esau sold his birthright to Jacob, but in actuality, it all went according to God's long-ago made plan. God renamed Jacob the younger twin Israel, and Esau was called Edom.

15 My frame was not hidden from you,
when I was being made in secret,
intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance;
in your book were written, every one of them,
the days that were formed for me,
when as yet there was none of them.
(Psalm 139)

Again, just a guess.
Sovreignty....
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Old 11-17-2011, 11:30 AM
 
531 posts, read 206,593 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Read the account very carefully...The answer will come...Where they born at the same time?
richard... you need to read it.

a 3rd grader could tell you that Esau was born first.
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Old 11-17-2011, 05:22 PM
 
358 posts, read 165,084 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
I would ask you regarding the comment of 'a loving God not saving everyone'...Are you in the UR camp on this?...
Actually, no. I was mentioning things that our human nature might be inclined to want to believe...things that might seem to make sense to a certain side of us.

I mentioned unbelievers, as well. They may display some wishful thinking, and convince themselves that a loving God would never punish them eternally.

My point is that if we are going to let the Scriptures be our source for truth, then we have to come to terms with what is taught therein. I believe the Bible is clear that not everyone is going to be saved. Furthermore, I find that those who do become saved are saved "according to the good pleasure of [God's] will". This is the long and the short of it.

I would like to develop this a little more at some point. It may not be overly easy, as some of the language (in the Bible) has to be carefully considered, and the Scriptures carefully searched.

I see people claiming that predestination/election is based on what we first do. It just seems to be a great contradiction in terms. Also, some feel the new heart is given to those who have first demonstrated saving faith.

Now, to me....it seems unthinkable. How can we confuse such a thing? But some really feel that this is what the Bible teaches. Maybe it's coincidental with the belief that everyone must have the opportunity to choose whether or not they will "accept" Christ.

It may seem logical from a human standpoint, but I sincerely believe that the Scriptures will not bear this out. Everything about our salvation is God's work...even down to what appears to be our response to the gospel.

I trust we will be speaking a bit more on this subject, even if it's responding to objections
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Old 11-18-2011, 08:16 AM
 
Location: US
10,288 posts, read 3,937,224 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atomtkirk View Post
richard... you need to read it.

a 3rd grader could tell you that Esau was born first.
What day where they born?...
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Old 11-18-2011, 09:18 AM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAA2310 View Post
Actually, no. I was mentioning things that our human nature might be inclined to want to believe...things that might seem to make sense to a certain side of us.
Or things that look more desirable...Like the JW theology of getting to live out your physical life on a new earth...That is most desirable...But is it true?...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAA2310 View Post
I mentioned unbelievers, as well. They may display some wishful thinking, and convince themselves that a loving God would never punish them eternally.
I see it more as creating Hawyaw in your own image instead of conforming to the attributes of Hawyaw...I am beginning to wonder if Hawyaw did not create all this 'diversity' for the purpose of christian growth...In other words those who want to know THE Truth will dig deep and be prepared to accept the Truth no matter how distasteful it seems to their human side...You know, 'Everybody gets a Gold Star no matter what' thinking...Which to me is humanism...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAA2310 View Post
My point is that if we are going to let the Scriptures be our source for truth, then we have to come to terms with what is taught therein. I believe the Bible is clear that not everyone is going to be saved. Furthermore, I find that those who do become saved are saved "according to the good pleasure of [God's] will". This is the long and the short of it.
This is what Predestination is...What Sovreign Choice is...What Election is...One does not become Predestinated or Chosen or Elected once one gets around to 'joining' the body of Jeshua...It is BECAUSE of those three terms that one BECOMES a member of the body of Jeshua...Most people do not understand Calvin's or Augustine's Logic and Reason on total depravity...If one would ask themselves why is it that Hawyaw has to intervene and regenerate us to enable us to respond positively to the Gospel because we are all dead in trespasses and sins, they would come to the conclusion that it is because we are totally depraved, this is why we are unable to respond without Hawyaw's intervention...This was logically thought out by Calvin and Augustine and later Calvin coined the term 'Total Depravity'...Which by definition implies an inability to see the Reign of Hawyaw without His intervention as He says, 'neither are we able to'...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAA2310 View Post
I would like to develop this a little more at some point. It may not be overly easy, as some of the language (in the Bible) has to be carefully considered, and the Scriptures carefully searched.
Certainly...It is easy when one employs Logic and Reason...I call it 'Balancing out' The Scriptures...I believe it was Calvin that said, 'The theme of a Pre-Ordained Universe and Free will run side by side throughout the entire Bible' however, He stated that even He was unable to reconcile the two...My thought on the matter is that If we have no existence outside of Hawyaw, and that we had no prior existance untill He brought us into existance...This begs the question of, 'Where do our thoughts and choices, etal. originate from?...This is just a theory i've put out before but no one seemed to want to discuss it...And it is, I theorize, our DNA that Hawyaw has programmed either to Respond or to Reject the Gospel...In other words, only those with the devine spark embeded into their genetic code will respond positively to the Gospel...The one missing that 'line of code' will not...So, by 'hearing' the Gospel that time stamped line of code becomes activated...Kinda like a program that has code embeded in it that will only become active when a user types a specific keyword into a textbox and presses enter...Again, this is only a theory of mine...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAA2310 View Post
I see people claiming that predestination/election is based on what we first do. It just seems to be a great contradiction in terms. Also, some feel the new heart is given to those who have first demonstrated saving faith.
Then it is not Predestination, Fore-Ordination, Sovreign Choice or Election...Hawyaw is not the Master of our destinies...We are...So, why use those terms in the Scriptures if they do not imply what their definitions are?...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAA2310 View Post
Now, to me....it seems unthinkable. How can we confuse such a thing? But some really feel that this is what the Bible teaches. Maybe it's coincidental with the belief that everyone must have the opportunity to choose whether or not they will "accept" Christ.
Again, this is because people wish to create their own god...Since sinful man has become more liberal, they also want a liberal god...I've heard it many times from many 'liberal' people that if Hawyaw is really like what I see in the Scriptures, that they wouldn't want to worship a god like that...If He does not give everyone a choice or the opportunity, they don't want anything to do with Him...They want a liberal god that fits their image...A god who has their attributes...In todays world Justice is just a word...Righteousness is a word with dynamic meanig...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAA2310 View Post
It may seem logical from a human standpoint, but I sincerely believe that the Scriptures will not bear this out. Everything about our salvation is God's work...even down to what appears to be our response to the gospel.
Exactly...The whole universe from the beginning to the end had no existence until Hawyaw created it...And if Hawyaw thought it out down to every detail...Then everything man, history, choices, righteousness, evil, all of it has it's origins either directly or indirectly in Hawyaw...Even Satan can do nothing unless Hawyaw allow him to...Look at Job...I see through the Scriptures that Satan, as the Hebrews saw him, is just a development tool used by Hawyaw...How else would one explain why, when sin is not permitted in Hawyaw's presence. and Satan is supposedly Evil and Sinful, that he was in fact in the presence of Hawyaw and discoursed with Hawyaw regarding Job?...Another thing is that most Christians see Hawyaw as this person far away in the Heavens, when in fact the whole Universe exists inside of Hawyaw...This would explain His Omnipresence...Maybe there is some Truth in the Pagan belief that god is in everything, rocks, trees, man, etc....A Truth remembered from ancient times that has gotten degraded as has Christianity in the last 2000 years...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAA2310 View Post
I trust we will be speaking a bit more on this subject, even if it's responding to objections
Yes...Definitely...Perhaps if You and I discuss what we know to be True others may get something positive from our discourse...
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Old 11-18-2011, 10:00 AM
 
531 posts, read 206,593 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
What day where they born?...
Richard, I'm quickly losing interest in continuing this.
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Old 11-18-2011, 10:02 AM
 
531 posts, read 206,593 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
What day where they born?...
I know you are not wanting me to understand that since they were born on the same day, they were born at the same time...

Or are you?
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