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Old 11-19-2011, 09:34 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
26,229 posts, read 14,109,783 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
But Thessalonians says: For God's purpose for us is not wrath, but salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, Who was put to death for us, so that, awake or sleeping, we may have a part in his life.

Proverbs 19:21 Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails.

So what is gods purpose?

Because it is God's purpose that our way of life may be not unclean but holy.

Your version of gods purpose is simply to avenge his good name but scripture says his purpose is salvation and holiness. If an unholy man dies and is sent to a place of everlasting torment, how then does god accomplish his purpose? How does a man achieve holiness in everlasting torment after death?

I must assume all gods wrath then is for use now while we live not after death because it doesn't accomplish gods purpose.

If gods purpose is to save mankind and create a holy people with his justice... Does the Christian hell do anything to mitigate that?
Thessalonians is addressed to the church - so you statement above is accurate in terms of the body of Christ.

God's purpose? Ultimately He wants to be glorified. That does not mean all will be saved. Note this statement of purpose.

Prov. 16:4 - The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil.

And as Romans 9 stated, there is a purpose for the vessels of God's wrath.

You ask how does a man achieve holiness in everlasting torment? Man's holiness is NOT the goal here. God's holiness is the goal. And that means He can use His creations as He sees fit.
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Old 11-19-2011, 09:54 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,390,644 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
Thessalonians is addressed to the church - so you statement above is accurate in terms of the body of Christ.

God's purpose? Ultimately He wants to be glorified. That does not mean all will be saved. Note this statement of purpose.

Prov. 16:4 - The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil.

And as Romans 9 stated, there is a purpose for the vessels of God's wrath.

You ask how does a man achieve holiness in everlasting torment? Man's holiness is NOT the goal here. God's holiness is the goal. And that means He can use His creations as He sees fit.
You are saying then, and correct me if I'm wrong, that god needs to establish his holiness?

I don't get that. The bible seems to indicate that god is holy, and there is no debate about it. Why then does he need to establish it?

When I read the scripture, it seems to say that god is trying (used loosely) to create a righteous society. To improve mans life now.

Do you truly think that all god cares about is himself? Is god ego?
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Old 11-19-2011, 10:17 PM
 
17,750 posts, read 8,883,926 times
Reputation: 1493
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Since the fall of man, mans point of contact with God is His Justice, not His love. All of God's attributes work together in harmony, but in dealing with sinful mankind, all of God's attributes must go through His Justice. Love can only bless, as it did before the fall. But Divine Justice can both bless and curse. Since the unbeliever will not adjust to the Justice of God in salvation, the Justice of God will leave Him under eternal condemnation.

It is God's Justice that both provided the means of salvation through imputations, and which leaves in condemnation all who refuse God's offer of salvation. God cannot and will not allow His love to compromise His Justice.

Universalists need to learn doctrine instead of relying on their emotions. The Scriptures are clear that the unbeliever is to be sentenced to eternity in the lake of fire.
The point of contact is with the Spirit of his Word.
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Old 11-19-2011, 10:19 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,816,901 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
Moderator cut: deleted

Regarding Mystic's post...



I said God is holy and just. This means God can not be associated with sin. He separates himself from sin and judges sin as He sees fit. That's what He did with Adam. Adam was removed from God's presence in the garden and he received a judgment of death, both spiritual and physical.

In all the focus on God's love - His holiness and justice gets lost in the discussion - but these are clearly attributes of God that must be taken into account.
God also removed Satan and his demonic followers after they rebelled from heaven. The eternal damnation that awaits the unbeliever is the result of people rejecting God by following Satan's lies and delusions.
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Old 11-19-2011, 10:31 PM
 
37,531 posts, read 25,250,403 times
Reputation: 5857
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
But Thessalonians says: For God's purpose for us is not wrath, but salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, Who was put to death for us, so that, awake or sleeping, we may have a part in his life.

Proverbs 19:21 Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails.

So what is gods purpose?

Because it is God's purpose that our way of life may be not unclean but holy.

Your version of gods purpose is simply to avenge his good name but scripture says his purpose is salvation and holiness. If an unholy man dies and is sent to a place of everlasting torment, how then does god accomplish his purpose? How does a man achieve holiness in everlasting torment after death?

I must assume all gods wrath then is for use now while we live not after death because it doesn't accomplish gods purpose.

If gods purpose is to save mankind and create a holy people with his justice... Does the Christian hell do anything to mitigate that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
Thessalonians is addressed to the church - so you statement above is accurate in terms of the body of Christ.

God's purpose? Ultimately He wants to be glorified. That does not mean all will be saved. Note this statement of purpose.

Prov. 16:4 - The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil.

And as Romans 9 stated, there is a purpose for the vessels of God's wrath.

You ask how does a man achieve holiness in everlasting torment? Man's holiness is NOT the goal here. God's holiness is the goal. And that means He can use His creations as He sees fit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
You are saying then, and correct me if I'm wrong, that god needs to establish his holiness?

I don't get that. The bible seems to indicate that god is holy, and there is no debate about it. Why then does he need to establish it?

When I read the scripture, it seems to say that god is trying (used loosely) to create a righteous society. To improve mans life now.

Do you truly think that all god cares about is himself? Is god ego?
Great posts, Kat. Getting them to think about what they are actually saying is a tedious task. Glad you are taking it on.
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Old 11-19-2011, 10:43 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
26,229 posts, read 14,109,783 times
Reputation: 10096
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
You are saying then, and correct me if I'm wrong, that god needs to establish his holiness?

I don't get that. The bible seems to indicate that god is holy, and there is no debate about it. Why then does he need to establish it?

When I read the scripture, it seems to say that god is trying (used loosely) to create a righteous society. To improve mans life now.

Do you truly think that all god cares about is himself? Is god ego?
God doesn't need to establish His holiness because He is holy. The world is corrupted because of sin.

God will indeed create a righteous society (new heaven & new earth) - where He is included. But that can't include anyone that with sin in them. Those who possess Christ will be part of this righteous society.

If God just cared about Himself, He would not have sent His only Son to die on earth. That is one area where His love comes into play.
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Old 11-19-2011, 10:51 PM
 
17,750 posts, read 8,883,926 times
Reputation: 1493
And there's no greater love, than to lay your life down for ALL of HUMANITY.
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Old 11-20-2011, 03:33 AM
 
Location: On a road heaven bound !
10,290 posts, read 8,043,800 times
Reputation: 17783
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
God also removed Satan and his demonic followers after they rebelled from heaven. The eternal damnation that awaits the unbeliever is the result of people rejecting God by following Satan's lies and delusions.
Amen.... Twin !! Satan has many people delusional and spreading His lies about the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit !!

Take warning and be blessed..... God is very serious about sin, if it were not true He wouldn't have sent His Son to be the ultimate sacrifice for sin... our way of escape from it as Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was done once for all sin....
A blessings for those who will believe (God) and repent (from sin) reap eternal life !!

And a curse to all eternal damnation for those who do not believe God and reject, deny Him...

"We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one. And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life." (1John 5:18-20)..... amen !!

Let no man deceive YOU....

“I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do. But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him! (Luke 12:4-5)

***********

....Jesus actually said,

......"Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.
You are My friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you." (John 15:13-15)


For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. (Rom.5:7)

I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. (John 10:14-15)

..... “I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep." (John 10:11) ..... Thank you, Lord Jesus !!!

And when Jesus spoke He reminded us ..... "For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.” (John 12:49-50)

The Holy Spirit our Helper brings to our remembrance what..... Jesus tells His friends, sheep .....

“He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.” ( John 14:21)
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Old 11-20-2011, 03:38 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,390,644 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
God doesn't need to establish His holiness because He is holy. The world is corrupted because of sin.

God will indeed create a righteous society (new heaven & new earth) - where He is included. But that can't include anyone that with sin in them. Those who possess Christ will be part of this righteous society.

If God just cared about Himself, He would not have sent His only Son to die on earth. That is one area where His love comes into play.
So to clarify... You are looking to a future where you'll be forced to be sinless? In another realm of reality?

You said gods purpose is to prove (used loosely) his holiness. Then you admit he doesn't need to verify it, he just is. I guess I don't understand. Why wait until death to fix the human race?

God so loved the world that he sent his son to.... Tell people about a future society where everyone is sinless? What part of that helps you now?

I think love is god. We all know how powerful love is. Justice and holiness are great, but isn't love the thing that fuels sinlessness?

Anyway, I think you shortchange god by saying he is just and holy over loving.

Just my 2 cents. Possibly 4 cents.
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Old 11-20-2011, 03:40 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,390,644 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Great posts, Kat. Getting them to think about what they are actually saying is a tedious task. Glad you are taking it on.
Trying!!! thx!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
And there's no greater love, than to lay your life down for ALL of HUMANITY.
Exactly!
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