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Old 11-21-2011, 09:37 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
God is both just and fair so instead of listening to and going by what man teaches, read/learn what God says about punishment for the wicked.

Read the Scriptures instead of listening to the man made doctrine of hell and eternal torment taught by and invented by men; namely Dante and Milton.

What does God say about punishment for the wicked? Does He say they shall be tormented for ever and ever? No. This is what God says:

Ps 37:10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.

Ps 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away

Ps 68:2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.

Ps 106:18 And a fire was kindled in their company; the flame burned up the wicked.

This idea that God will cast ppl into 'hell' where the devil is, where there's fire/brimstone and eternal torment is a misunderstanding of Christ's usage of the words 'hell fire.'

He is not speaking of the 'hell' taught by Dante, but was using a metaphor for the lake of fire/second death.

He used the word geenna which refers to the Valley of Hinnom which was the garbage dumb outside of Jerusalem where the fire never went out, the worms never died etc etc.

There was no NT when Christ walked the earth. He taught what the OT teaches and that is the wicked shall be consumed/turned to ashes.

It's time ppl that we put the hell/torment/for ever and ever to rest and stop putting words in God's mouth that He did not say and or teach.
This would be a useful witness if it was based on the understanding that no one is ALL wicked . . . just like the fat on our bodies our wickedness is attached to our Spirit . . . but it is removable. We have been "saved as if by fire" . . . but our works will be tested.
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Old 11-22-2011, 01:20 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
26,222 posts, read 14,105,516 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
So to clarify... You are looking to a future where you'll be forced to be sinless? In another realm of reality?

You said gods purpose is to prove (used loosely) his holiness. Then you admit he doesn't need to verify it, he just is. I guess I don't understand. Why wait until death to fix the human race?

God so loved the world that he sent his son to.... Tell people about a future society where everyone is sinless? What part of that helps you now?

I think love is god. We all know how powerful love is. Justice and holiness are great, but isn't love the thing that fuels sinlessness?

Anyway, I think you shortchange god by saying he is just and holy over loving.

Just my 2 cents. Possibly 4 cents.
Have been busy the last couple of days - will read through the thread and catch up.

Regarding the blue. God does not need to establish his holiness because he is already. The problem is that we don't see it because we are corrupt. Why wait until death? Because our bodies are corrupt, and are destined to return to the ground.

Regarding the red... You continue to gloss over justice and holiness as part of God's character.
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Old 11-22-2011, 01:35 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
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There are lots of posts about God's love in sending Christ to die. That is not in dispute. I agree. Without that decision made by God, all would be toast - all would be separated from God forever.

The sending of His Son is in response to God's justice. Adam sinned and death resulted - a penalty and repercussions for missing the mark. The Lord warned Adam ahead of time about death if he ate from the tree. God would not have had the opportunity to display love without exercising His justice first.

The same idea is shown in Romans 9:22-24. There are vessels of wrath who will receive judgment. The vessels of mercy will look upon them and recognize not only God's love in saving them, but also God's justice and holiness.
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Old 11-24-2011, 03:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
The abundance of love does not remove God's other characteristics.
The converse is true: God's justice and holiness does not remove the abundance of God's love.

I ask again, how could you leave someone in endless torment if you loved them?
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Old 11-24-2011, 03:06 PM
 
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Sorry for the delay in my reply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
Stating that His ways are our not our ways is straight from Isaiah. So it must mean something. It means God's perspective is different from ours. His motives are different. So for us to apply human logic to the issue of post-earth existence is fruitless. We must take what the Bible says about these things.
Yes of course stating God's ways are not our ways means something. It means they are higher and better ways. Why do you and others turn it to mean God's ways are same or worse than man's ways?

Quote:
God's holiness and justice are part of who He is.
Certainly.

Quote:
He has set forth death as a penalty for sin. Who has sinned? Everybody. Therefore - everyone deserves death - both spiritual and physical.

Can you at least agree with this?
Yes of course. But why do you not agree than Jesus paid that penalty for everyone?

To me it seems that you ignoring God's love at the expense of so-called "justice".

God's justice and holiness and love are in complete harmony. It is neither just nor loving to let a single soul suffer forever.
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Old 11-24-2011, 03:14 PM
 
Location: Toronto, ON
2,333 posts, read 2,443,166 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
Moderator cut: deleted

Regarding Mystic's post...



I said God is holy and just. This means God can not be associated with sin. He separates himself from sin and judges sin as He sees fit. That's what He did with Adam. Adam was removed from God's presence in the garden and he received a judgment of death, both spiritual and physical.

In all the focus on God's love - His holiness and justice gets lost in the discussion - but these are clearly attributes of God that must be taken into account.
Somewhere there has to be an end to all the lessons for suffering to not go to hell. This goes for perhaps only oneself. God judges you independently of others. For Sartre God must judge you against others. But by trust you are guaranteed to be with the other at the end of the World.
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Old 11-24-2011, 03:49 PM
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
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Quote:
It is neither just nor loving to let a single soul suffer forever.
God has the authority to do these things. No one else has that authority.
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Old 11-24-2011, 03:55 PM
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
2,705 posts, read 2,506,736 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
The converse is true: God's justice and holiness does not remove the abundance of God's love.

I ask again, how could you leave someone in endless torment if you loved them?
Because righteousness is not undermined or weakened by love. Men love God but also fear His righteousness.
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Old 11-24-2011, 03:58 PM
 
Location: Lower east side of Toronto
10,589 posts, read 10,324,924 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
Moderator cut: deleted

Regarding Mystic's post...



I said God is holy and just. This means God can not be associated with sin. He separates himself from sin and judges sin as He sees fit. That's what He did with Adam. Adam was removed from God's presence in the garden and he received a judgment of death, both spiritual and physical.

In all the focus on God's love - His holiness and justice gets lost in the discussion - but these are clearly attributes of God that must be taken into account.
Yep he knows when you are lieing - and he understands something that we do not - about lieing to ones self - that if the curse of deviate human imagination...He knows when you are sleeping - and knows when you are awake...he knows when you've been bad or good....so be good for goodness sake...where did I hear that - sound familiar.
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Old 11-24-2011, 05:15 PM
 
37,514 posts, read 25,243,901 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
The converse is true: God's justice and holiness does not remove the abundance of God's love.
I ask again, how could you leave someone in endless torment if you loved them?
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
God's justice and holiness and love are in complete harmony. It is neither just nor loving to let a single soul suffer forever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theophane View Post
God has the authority to do these things. No one else has that authority.
This has nothing to do with authority. No one has the authority to do evil, period . . . that was the problem with the Germans' thought processes. Perhaps it was born out of this kind of irrational thinking about evil and authority.
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