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Old 11-21-2011, 06:47 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,890 posts, read 26,105,247 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garya123 View Post
I know we have had our differances, but I want to compliment you on your sound doctrine concerning this and you stand fast. Peace
Thank you.
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Old 11-21-2011, 10:06 PM
 
Location: Arizona
28,956 posts, read 16,160,537 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
To the contrary, the contextual translation is: It is finished, accomplished and completed, bringing it to an end.

[It] makes absolutely no sense to take a detour from that which was accomplished, completed and finished, putting an end to sacrificing,
"For I desire mercy, not Sacrifice." Unless of course, you would like to "add" in a substitution theory of scapegoating!


Instead of:


After this, Jesus, knowing that all things had already been accomplished (tetelestai), to fulfill the Scriptures, said – 'I am thirsty.'
Therefore, when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, tetelestai (It is finished!)

And He bowed His head and gave up His Spirit into the hands of the Father.


His death on the cross by the hands of godless men was complete in accordance with the Scriptures. This man, who was raised up according to the
predetermined plan and foreknowledge of the Spirit, and Father of all, overcame the wickedness of men, publically exposing them in the face of adversity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Which is just what I said. Read the last four sentences of the first post.

Here they are.

When our personal sins had all been judged, Jesus said --'Tetelestai', ''It is finished.'' (John 19:30).

We have Papyri receipts for taxes which have the word 'Tetelestai' written across them, which means 'paid in full.' Jesus said that His redemptive work on the cross had been completed.
He had borne and been judged for the sins of the world and had paid the penalty for sin which the justice of God demanded.

Tetelestai means 'It is finished.' 'Paid in full.' Jesus Christ paid in full, the penalty for the sins of the world.
Christ, instead of satisfying your obligation of man’s so called "justice" overthrew the power of the Law, as its condemnation of a perfect man was unjust.
But you must understand the Cross from the perspective of Love and Grace, rather than that of Legalism.


"Having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross" (Colossians 2:14)


"And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross" (Colossians 2:15)


"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set us free from the law of sin and death" (Romans 8:1).


Love Prevails by and through his Grace and Mercy, not in demanding
that of a sacrifice, or a life for a life.
May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord, Jesus Christ, which holds the real truth for which he was sent – to reveal the heart of God!
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Old 11-21-2011, 10:30 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 6,972,934 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
Christ, instead of satisfying your obligation of man’s so called "justice" overthrew the power of the Law, as its condemnation of a perfect man was unjust.
But you must understand the Cross from the perspective of Love and Grace, rather than that of Legalism.


"Having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross" (Colossians 2:14)


"And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross" (Colossians 2:15)


"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set us free from the law of sin and death" (Romans 8:1).


Love Prevails by and through his Grace and Mercy, not in demanding
that of a sacrifice, or a life for a life.
May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord, Jesus Christ, which holds the real truth for which he was sent – to reveal the heart of God!
So much hope is within those words of promise. Jesus obviously did not approve of legalism. I wish more people believed the truth about God's grace and goodness. I know this world would be a better place if they did.

Heartsong, feeling grateful and baking pumpkin pies.......
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Old 11-21-2011, 10:31 PM
 
63,405 posts, read 39,647,364 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarletWren View Post
No you are quite mistaken. ALL mankind WILL be made alive in Christ. It is YOU who misunderstands the gospel. We are to be ambassadors to bring the good news to the world that God is no longer imputing sins to the world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
Christ, instead of satisfying your obligation of man’s so called "justice" overthrew the power of the Law, as its condemnation of a perfect man was unjust.
But you must understand the Cross from the perspective of Love and Grace, rather than that of Legalism.


"Having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross" (Colossians 2:14)


"And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross" (Colossians 2:15)


"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set us free from the law of sin and death" (Romans 8:1).


Love Prevails by and through his Grace and Mercy, not in demanding
that of a sacrifice, or a life for a life.
May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord, Jesus Christ, which holds the real truth for which he was sent – to reveal the heart of God!
Hold fast Scarlet and Jerwade . . . you are doing an excellent job. The Holy Spirit is operating in you both.
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Old 11-21-2011, 11:56 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,890 posts, read 26,105,247 times
Reputation: 16012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
Christ, instead of satisfying your obligation of man’s so called "justice" overthrew the power of the Law, as its condemnation of a perfect man was unjust.
But you must understand the Cross from the perspective of Love and Grace, rather than that of Legalism.


"Having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross" (Colossians 2:14)


"And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross" (Colossians 2:15)


"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set us free from the law of sin and death" (Romans 8:1).


Love Prevails by and through his Grace and Mercy, not in demanding
that of a sacrifice, or a life for a life.
May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord, Jesus Christ, which holds the real truth for which he was sent – to reveal the heart of God!
Grace is everything that God is free to do for man on the basis of the cross.

Legalism has nothing to do with it. As I previously said, God's love motivated Him to provide salvation, but it was God's Justice that actually made salvation possible.

Jesus Christ satisfied God's Justice by going to the cross and paying the penalty for man's sins. God the Father was satisfied - propitiated by the substitutional sacrifical death of Christ on the cross. Romans 3:24 'being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25] whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26] for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

The word propitiation - satisfaction, is translated from the Greek word 'hilastérion' which means 'to satisfy by a sacrifice.' In Hebrews 9:5 the same word is translated as 'Mercy Seat' - the place of atonement of the tabernacle's ark of the covenant. On the day of atonement a goats blood was sprinkled to cover Israel's sins (Lev 16:15) and satisfy God for another year. This was a type or picture of Jesus' death on the cross. Jesus' sacrificial death on the cross was the final and perfect sacrifice by which God's justice was satisified or propitiated, therefore freeing God to provide eternal salvation for those who believe in Christ.

Heb 10:12 'but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God.'

Jesus' death on the cross was planned by God in eternity past. Acts 2:23 'this man, delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.

Jesus came into the world for the purpose of going to the cross where He died for the sins of the world. A perfect sacrifice to satisfy God's Just demands regarding sin. Jesus Christ died in our place. A substitute who paid the price that no sinner could ever pay.
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Old 11-22-2011, 11:37 AM
 
Location: Arizona
28,956 posts, read 16,160,537 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
He had borne and been judged for the sins of the world and had paid the penalty for sin which the justice of God demanded.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Grace is everything that God is free to do for man on the basis of the cross.

Legalism has nothing to do with it. As I previously said, God's love motivated Him to provide salvation, but it was God's Justice that actually made salvation possible.

Jesus Christ satisfied God's Justice by going to the cross and paying the penalty for man's sins. God the Father was satisfied - propitiated by the substitutional sacrifical death of Christ on the cross.
The Satisfaction or Penal Substitution doctrines that you appear to hold dear to your heart, only enables you to see the cross through the eyes of a legalistic mindset, so you are not fooling anyone. Christ’s sacrifice was never to appease the demands of God – that in and of itself is Pagan concept. You appear to view love with suspicion, believing it will infringe upon your own sense of justice without mercy. Focusing on Jesus' death for the most part makes his life irrelevant, as if, he came only to die for your sins; a lamb for those who have a carnivorous diet.

"Man's reaction to justice is to put people in prison or to death; but Jesus' response was to release the captives, giving them life."

It was hatred that crucified him, when he took a stance for love and mercy. Indeed, he put sin and death under his feet at the foot of the cross.
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Old 11-22-2011, 12:07 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 6,972,934 times
Reputation: 1615
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
The Satisfaction or Penal Substitution doctrines that you appear to hold dear to your heart, only enables you to see the cross through the eyes of a legalistic mindset, so you are not fooling anyone. Christ’s sacrifice was never to appease the demands of God – that in and of itself is Pagan concept. You appear to view love with suspicion, believing it will infringe upon your own sense of justice without mercy. Focusing on Jesus' death for the most part makes his life irrelevant, as if, he came only to die for your sins; a lamb for those who have a carnivorous diet.

"Man's reaction to justice is to put people in prison or to death; but Jesus' response was to release the captives, giving them life."

It was hatred that crucified him, when he took a stance for love and mercy. Indeed, he put sin and death under his feet at the foot of the cross.
This is among the best statements of faith I have ever read anywhere. Definitely the best I've ever read on the City-Data Christian forum. We really should meditate on Jesus' life - the WAY he walked - the way he dealt with people, which culminated in the WAY he reacted to DEATH -- not shrinking from it, but showing us how to face death without being terrified and without laying the blame for it on others. Beautiful post, Jerwade.
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Old 11-22-2011, 12:33 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,890 posts, read 26,105,247 times
Reputation: 16012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
The Satisfaction or Penal Substitution doctrines that you appear to hold dear to your heart, only enables you to see the cross through the eyes of a legalistic mindset, so you are not fooling anyone. Christ’s sacrifice was never to appease the demands of God – that in and of itself is Pagan concept. You appear to view love with suspicion, believing it will infringe upon your own sense of justice without mercy. Focusing on Jesus' death for the most part makes his life irrelevant, as if, he came only to die for your sins; a lamb for those who have a carnivorous diet.

"Man's reaction to justice is to put people in prison or to death; but Jesus' response was to release the captives, giving them life."

It was hatred that crucified him, when he took a stance for love and mercy. Indeed, he put sin and death under his feet at the foot of the cross.
The scripture I posted and commented on in post #35 reveals that the sacrifice of Christ on the cross was to satisfy the demands of God's Justice. It has nothing to do with legalism.

Only by ignoring and dismissing what the Scriptures plainly state can you hold to your views. Quite frankly, your views are not Christian.
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Old 11-22-2011, 01:58 PM
 
Location: Arizona
28,956 posts, read 16,160,537 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The scripture I posted and commented on in post #35 reveals that the sacrifice of Christ on the cross was to satisfy the demands of God's Justice. It has nothing to do with legalism.

Only by ignoring and dismissing what the Scriptures plainly state can you hold to your views. Quite frankly, your views are not Christian.
Christianity is Syncretistic, it has been modified in an attempt to reconcile various beliefs.
Which you and many others have come to believe is the whole truth.

"God is not an unemotional dictator, but he will give you over to the hardening of your own heart."


Last edited by Jerwade; 11-22-2011 at 02:13 PM..
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Old 11-22-2011, 02:08 PM
 
17,966 posts, read 15,872,830 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The scripture I posted and commented on in post #35 reveals that the sacrifice of Christ on the cross was to satisfy the demands of God's Justice.
Mike, since it is true that God's Justice was satisfied when Christ bore the sins of the world as the Lamb of God, why is God (according to most Christians) still demanding a pound of flesh from humans for their sins?
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