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Old 11-28-2011, 10:12 AM
 
Location: On a road heaven bound !
10,290 posts, read 8,051,435 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
That is the point. Glad you got it.

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Old 11-28-2011, 10:22 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,568 posts, read 31,963,402 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
Lets read ALL of 1 John 5...to know the truth as it is written, not as "the gospel of Finn Jarber" falsely proclaims...

1Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.


5Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

6This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

9If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

10He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

12He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

13These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

14And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:

15And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

16If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death [which is UN-WILLFULL SIN - SINS OF IGNORANCE]!, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death [WHICH IS WILLFULL SIN!]: I do not say that he shall pray for it [...and WHY? will he will not say that he shall pray for those sins...? BECAUSE THERE IS NO MORE SACRIFICE...NO MORE FORGIVENESS FOR WILLFUL SIN FOR THOSE WHO HAVE TASTED THE GOODNESS OF GOD AND RETURNED BACK TO THEIR SINFULL WAYS!].

17All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death [WHICH IS UN-WILLFULL SINS!].

18We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

19And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

20And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

21Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

There you go...read it!!!..."...whoever rejects the Son will NOT see life! "

It DOESN'T SAY, "If you once believed and received the Word of God (Jesus) and then rejected Him, you will still receive eternal life."


...shall we delve a little further into John 5...

25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

27And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

46For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

47But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

...there you go!...ONLY! those who believe (and not in words alone, but in whether or not they kept His commandments!) <<<THAT! is BELIEF!

...there you go!...ONLY! those who believe (and not in words alone, but in whether or not they kept His commandments!) <<<THAT! is BELIEF!

...there you go!...ONLY! those who believe (and not in words alone, but in whether or not they kept His commandments!) <<<THAT! is BELIEF!


...there you go!...ONLY! those who believe (and not in words alone, but in whether or not they kept His commandments!) <<<THAT! is BELIEF!

John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God..."



NO ONE CAN WALK IN THE SPIRIT AND THE FLESH AT THE SAME TIME!


There is not one verse that supports your false statements Finn Jarber! NOT ONE!
They all support my view. You have been taught a different gospel, and I am sorry to see it, as you will never have peace in Christ. You will always wonder when you will slip and lose your salvation and all the works you have performed.

Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 11-28-2011 at 10:30 AM..
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Old 11-28-2011, 10:32 AM
 
Location: The State Of California
9,147 posts, read 11,700,212 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theophane View Post
Those who knowingly blaspheme the Holy Spirit are asking for their names to blotted from the Lamb's Book of Life. How many people on CD have done this, as a joke or a party game?
None , you have to know the fullness of the Holy Spirit and his spiritual gifts in order to Blasphene GOD The Holy Spirit.
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Old 11-28-2011, 10:37 AM
 
Location: Arizona
267 posts, read 230,871 times
Reputation: 58
Default Saved then fallen away

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I don't have the time or the patience for your attitude. With such an attitude you are unteachable.
Yes, I know. The attitude of chosing the teachings of the Bible over the teachings of men presents a brickwall for you. It is clear that when faced with the inspired words of the Bible, your doctrines of men crumble and you have nothing more to present.

It's your own suggestion that the surounding passages support your assertions and should be considered. And yet, your presentation is to provide references that direct AWAY from the Bible.

Your assertion that "fallen away" does not indicate the loss of salvation is directly contradicted by the exposition and subsequent illustration Paul provides of the principle. The description "it ends up being burned" is obviously a description of judgment and part of the overall narrative regarding those who have fallen away.
(Heb 6:4-8) 4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned. (NASB)


It is the base tactic of theologians to attempt to "explain away" those scriptures that contradict their prefered false doctrine and I appreciate your characterization of me as being "unteachable" while you struggle and surrender when using those tactics with me. You cannot controvert the inspired word of God no matter how many philosophers' interpretations you reference.

The principle elucidated in Hebrews 6:1-8 is a direct and explicit contradiction of the false belief of "once saved, always saved".
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Old 11-28-2011, 10:52 AM
 
Location: The State Of California
9,147 posts, read 11,700,212 times
Reputation: 3438
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdaelectro View Post
For all of you heretics that believe you can lose your salvation, I have one question for you.

How many sins does it take to be blotted out of the book of life or lose your salvation?

Christ died once and for all.

As soon as one believes this, then he/she is saved...forEVER!

We ALL sin daily.

1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
We are only without "sin" after " repentances" in that case it's as if we never "sinned".
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Old 11-28-2011, 11:00 AM
 
Location: AZ
741 posts, read 1,323,969 times
Reputation: 1450
I really hope my name isn't blotted out

I am a sinner but I do trust in God and I am a Christian and I love Jesus !!
Everytime I sign on CD forum I see this thread and I thought I would throw in a little reply
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Old 11-28-2011, 11:03 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,568 posts, read 31,963,402 times
Reputation: 9421
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuciaMomof6 View Post
I really hope my name isn't blotted out

I am a sinner but I do trust in God and I am a Christian and I love Jesus !!
Everytime I sign on CD forum I see this thread and I thought I would throw in a little reply
If you trust Him, your name will never be blotted out.
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Old 11-28-2011, 11:19 AM
 
20,324 posts, read 15,687,589 times
Reputation: 7441
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prairieparson View Post
It occured to me I could give you a better response to your last post concerning someone who dies in an accident in the middle of a angry rant at their wife. It sounds like you are rejecting the idea that we are going from faith to unbelief to faith depending on our sins and repentance for those sins. I would reject that also, and that is not what the Bible indicates. If you read Romans chapter 7, and Paul's discussion of it, you find a very similar explanation, a believer struggling with his sinful flesh. That isn't at all what these texts are talking about. What these texts are talking about is that Christians, who are persistent in their unbelief, persistent in their love for money, or idolatry, or in their unrepentance, these people can and will lose their salvation if they continue on this path. Again, consider David, when the prophet accused Him of sin, he repented. Had he not repented, and persisted in it, God would not have forgiven him.

I don't know if you've thought the "once saved always saved" thing through, but it taken to its logical conclusion, it would mean that a Christian can go out and be a persistent adulterer, without ever asking for forgiveness and refusal to stop it, and its OK with God. There's nothing like that in the Bible.
As a pastor, or former pastor, (but actually every believer should understand this), you should have enough knowledge to understand that since Jesus paid in full, the price for the sins of the world, there is no sin a believer can commit which Christ has not already paid for. Whatever sin a believer commits, and no matter how often he commits it, IT HAS BEEN PAID FOR ALREADY.

The sins of the world, past, present, and future, were poured out on Christ during the three hour period from noon to about 3:00 P.M. When the Father had judged all the sins of the world Jesus said ''Tetelestai'' It is finished. More accurately, ''It has been finished.'' Tetelestai is in the Perfect Indicative. The Perfect Indicative refers to past action completed with results existing forever.

Acts 26:18 'to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, in order that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.

Hegiasmenois - 'have been sanctified' is a Perfect Participle.

The basic thought of the perfect tense is that the progress of an action has been completed and the results of the action are continuing on, in full effect. In other words, the progress of the action has reached its culmination and the finished results are now in existence. Unlike the English perfect, which indicates a completed past action, the Greek perfect tense indicates the continuation and present state of a completed past action.
Greek Verbs (Shorter Definitions)

Acts 26:18 is saying that the believer has been positionally sanctified (set apart, placed into union with Christ) through faith in Christ, and he is sanctified forever.

Hebrews 10:10 states, ''By this will we (believers) have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL.''

Again, although the phrase esmen - we are is Present tense, the word 'sanctified' is in the Perfect tense which means past action completed with results continuing forever.

Hebrews 10:10 is referring to Positional Sanctification which occurs at the moment of faith in Christ.


Now go to Hebrews 10:12 'but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God.

Jesus' sacrifice was offered for all time. Not just until someone commits willful sin.


Now see Hebrews 10:14 'For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

Teteleioken -'He has perfected,' for all time those who are sanctified.

By the one offering of Jesus Christ, those who have believed in Him have been Positionally Sanctified and Positionally perfected FOR ALL TIME.

No matter what the condition of the believer is EXPERIENTIALLY after his eternal salvation, POSITIONALLY, God has caused him to be Sanctified FOREVER.



Sin is not an issue so far as the believers eternal security is concerned. The believer will be disciplined for sin, and continuing disobedience will result in loss of eternal rewards, but no amount of sin will cause a believer to lose his salvation. God disciplines the believer as a son (Hebrews 12:4-6).


King Saul came to a point where because of his continual disobedience he was taken out of this life under the sin unto death, but he never lost his eternal salvation. When the prophet Samuel, long since dead, was brought up in a vision to King Saul, he told Saul that the very next day, he would be with him (1 Samuel 28:19). And Samuel was in Abraham's bosom - The Paradise side of Sheol/Hades. King Saul, despite his disobedience and being taken out of this life under maximum divine discipline ended up in Paradise. He never lost his salvation.
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Old 11-28-2011, 11:37 AM
 
20,324 posts, read 15,687,589 times
Reputation: 7441
Quote:
Originally Posted by BWW1962 View Post
Yes, I know. The attitude of chosing the teachings of the Bible over the teachings of men presents a brickwall for you. It is clear that when faced with the inspired words of the Bible, your doctrines of men crumble and you have nothing more to present.

It's your own suggestion that the surounding passages support your assertions and should be considered. And yet, your presentation is to provide references that direct AWAY from the Bible.

Your assertion that "fallen away" does not indicate the loss of salvation is directly contradicted by the exposition and subsequent illustration Paul provides of the principle. The description "it ends up being burned" is obviously a description of judgment and part of the overall narrative regarding those who have fallen away.
(Heb 6:4-8) 4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned. (NASB)


It is the base tactic of theologians to attempt to "explain away" those scriptures that contradict their prefered false doctrine and I appreciate your characterization of me as being "unteachable" while you struggle and surrender when using those tactics with me. You cannot controvert the inspired word of God no matter how many philosophers' interpretations you reference.

The principle elucidated in Hebrews 6:1-8 is a direct and explicit contradiction of the false belief of "once saved, always saved".
No BWW1962. You as do many have an attitude of rejecting what theologians and pastors say as being the precepts and doctrines of men. You accuse theologians of attempting to explain away scripture, instead of attempting to explain scripture. You have been told what Hebrews 6:4-6 means and you refuse to accept it. You think that you have an understanding of what some passage says, and will not listen even to theologians who have far more knowledge than you. I have already spent a lot of time refuting someone else on another thread who kept perverting the gospel. I don't feel like wasting my time on you right now.

But I will tell you this. If you have never understood the gospel and have always been trying to earn your salvation through your works, through your efforts to avoid sinning because you think that it is necessary for your salvation, then you aren't even saved. You are trusting in what you do, instead of what Jesus has done. All you are doing is working your way into hell.

Readers refer to posts #34 and 43. Those numbers could change if some posts get deleted.
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Old 11-28-2011, 11:54 AM
 
Location: Arizona
267 posts, read 230,871 times
Reputation: 58
Default Saved then fallen away

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
They all support my view. You have been taught a different gospel, and I am sorry to see it, as you will never have peace in Christ. You will always wonder when you will slip and lose your salvation and all the works you have performed.
Your view of once saved always saved is a nice security blanket but is inconsistent with the Bible teaching.

Hebrews 6:1-8
The Peril of Falling Away

1Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. 3And this we will do, if God permits. 4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

Does this not describe someone saved?

Does this not say "then have fallen away"?

Does this not say "impossible to renew"?

Does it not describe a judgment of "being burned"?

In order to cling to your belief you make the excuse that if someone falls away, they were never really saved. If they were not saved, then how could they fall away?

You could try to make the similar argument of others that fallen away does not mean fallen away but that would suggest Paul, being inspired, was inarticulate, as well as those who translated the Greek to English, not really knowing the meaning of the words they used.

You suggest that a disagreement with "once saved, always saved" is an attempt to generate fear. Is the purpose of a sign that says "Hot, do not touch" to generate fear? No, it is a warning and intended to impart wisdom.

You do seem to have a different gospel that does not include these warnings provided in the Bible. Anyone can be thinking they are doing OK, doing the right things, standing firm with Jesus, but a lack of accurate knowledge can be disastrous. Matthew 7:21-23.

Would it not seem “lawlessness” to suggest that since you are saved, you get a pass on ANY future sin: “So, it's OK if you are sleeping with your neighbors wife, we know we are imperfect anyway, falling prey to temptation. Don’t worry, you're saved, you'll be forgiven”. NOT!
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