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Old 11-30-2011, 07:50 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,941 posts, read 26,170,830 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
It is impossible to be grace oriented as long as the believer thinks that he can lose his eternal salvation. The eternal security of the believer is well taught in the Scriptures.

Eternal life is a free gift from God and the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Romans 6:23 'For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 11:29 'for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Irrevocable - ametamelétos - Not to be repented of (repentence means 'a change of mind.')

Strong's Concordance
Definition: not to be repented of, about which no change of mind can take place, not affected by change of mind.
Strong's Greek: 278. ???????????? (ametamelétos) -- not repented of

Literally: For not repented of are the grace gifts and calling of God.

God does not revoke what He has given or whom He has chosen. In eternity past God knew who would believe in Christ, and on that basis He chose them.

God does not and cannot change His mind about His call. The context of Romans 11:29 is Israel, (God has not cast away Israel), but the principle applies to all to whom God has given eternal life.

In Rom 11:30 Paul then refers to the Gentiles having now been shown mercy, and then in Rom 11:32 Paul writes that mercy has been shown to all. 'All' refers to both groups - Jews and Gentiles who in this present dispensation are a new creation. The Church is the body of Christ.

The gifts which God bestows on those who believe in Christ are forgiveness of sins, sanctification, and eternal life.

Regarding sanctification: The sins of the world, past, present, and future, were poured out on Christ during the three hour period from noon to about 3:00 P.M. When the Father had judged all the sins of the world Jesus said ''Tetelestai'' It is finished. More accurately, ''It has been finished.'' Tetelestai is in the Perfect Indicative. The Perfect Indicative refers to past action completed with results existing forever.

Acts 26:18 'to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, in order that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.

Hegiasmenois - 'have been sanctified' is a Perfect Participle.

The basic thought of the perfect tense is that the progress of an action has been completed and the results of the action are continuing on, in full effect. In other words, the progress of the action has reached its culmination and the finished results are now in existence. Unlike the English perfect, which indicates a completed past action, the Greek perfect tense indicates the continuation and present state of a completed past action.
Greek Verbs (Shorter Definitions)

Acts 26:18 is saying that the believer has been positionally sanctified (set apart, placed into union with Christ) through faith in Christ, and he is sanctified forever.

Hebrews 10:10 states, ''By this will we (believers) have been [we are] sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL.''

Again, although the phrase 'esmen - we are' is Present tense, the word 'sanctified' is in the Perfect tense which means past action completed with results continuing forever.

Hebrews 10:10 is referring to Positional Sanctification which occurs at the moment of faith in Christ.


Now go to Hebrews 10:12 'but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God.

Jesus' sacrifice was offered for all time. Not just until someone commits willful sin.


Now see Hebrews 10:14 'For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

Teteleioken -'He has perfected,' for all time those who are sanctified.

By the one offering of Jesus Christ, those who have believed in Him have been Positionally Sanctified and Positionally perfected FOR ALL TIME.

No matter what the condition of the believer is EXPERIENTIALLY after his eternal salvation, POSITIONALLY, God has caused him to be Sanctified FOREVER.



Sin is not an issue so far as the believers eternal security is concerned. The believer will be disciplined for sin, and continuing disobedience will result in loss of eternal rewards, but no amount of sin will cause a believer to lose his salvation. God disciplines the believer as a son no matter how rebellious he may be (Hebrews 12:4-6).


Hebrews 6:4-8 is simply referring to Jewish believers who were enticed into reverting back to the practices of Judaism. They began doing animal sacrifices which since the sacrifice of Christ on the cross were no longer to be practiced since they simply pointed to the sacrifice of Christ. Because they were doing this, they were in effect recrucifying Jesus. They had fallen away from what they had been taught concerning Christ. They had not and could not fall away from their eternal salvation. But they could come under divine discipline. Though Paul states that it is impossible to renew them to repentance since they are again crucifying to themselves the Son of God, what is impossible for man, is not impossible for God. Through divine discipline the wayward believer might repent - change his mind about dead works and about faith in Christ (Hebrews 6:1).

If the believer who has fallen away (the reverionistic believer) fails to recover, then he is useless, a loser believer and God may well take him out of this life under maximum divine discipline - the sin unto death, in which the reversionistic believer is taken home to heaven in a state of disgrace.

'Being burned' (Hebrews 6:8) fire (Hebrews 10:27) refers to judgment. In the case of the believer, it NEVER refers to the lake of fire.

Hebrews 6:8 'But if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.', is a metaphor which recalls the original curse which God put on the ground (Gen 3:17-19). The burning of a field to destroy the rank growth of vegetation it produced which might be harmful to health was practiced in the ancient world. The purpose was to destroy the unwanted produce in the field. With that done, the field might be of use. The unproductive Christian life, the believer who has fallen away into reversionism is subject to severe punishment from God (Heb 10:27). The writer of Hebrews said in Heb 12:29 'for our God is a consumng fire. God dishes out severe punishment to believers who disobey, but He does not take back His free gift of eternal life.

Refer back to Lamentations 4:6 and Jeremiah 17:27, both of which deal with God's punishment to 'His people,' - Believers. This is temporal punishment. Not eternal punishment.

Lamentations 4:6 'For the iniquity of the daughter of My people is greater than the sin of Sodom, which was overthrown as in a moment, and no hands were turned toward her. The resulting punishment - Lam 4:9 'Better are those slain with the sword than those slain with hunger; For they pine away, being stricken for lack of the fruits of the field. 10] The hands of compassionate women boiled their own children; they became food for them because of the destruction of the daughter of my people. 11] The Lord has accomplished His wrath, He has poured out His fierce anger; and He has kindled a fire in Zion which has consumed its foundation.


God warned His people in Jeremiah 17:27 ''But if you do not listen to Me to keep the sabbath day holy by not carrying a load and coming in through the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day, then I will kindle a fire in its gates, and it will devour the palaces of Jerusalem and not be quenched. '' '

The fire mentioned in those two passages refer to TEMPORAL punishment. Not eternal punishment. Not to a loss of eternal salvation.

King Saul came to a point where because of his continual disobedience he was taken out of this life under the sin unto death, but he never lost his eternal salvation. When the prophet Samuel, long since dead, was brought up in a vision to King Saul, he told Saul that the very next day, he would be with him (1 Samuel 28:19). And Samuel was in Abraham's bosom - The Paradise side of Sheol/Hades. King Saul, despite his disobedience and being taken out of this life under maximum divine discipline ended up in Paradise. He never lost his salvation.


I mentioned earlier that the gifts of God are irrevocable. The church-age believer at the moment of his salvation is the beneficiary of at least forty grace gifts. They are as follows...

1)Access to God (Rom. 5:2; Eph. 2:18; Eph.3:12)

2)The Baptism of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor.12:13; Gal.3:26-28; Eph.4:5)

3)The Unique Availability of Divine Power (Eph. 6:10; Acts 1:8)

4)Efficacious Grace (Eph 2:8-9; 2 Cor.6:1-2)

5)Election (Eph.1:3-4; Col 3:12-17)

6)Equal Privilege and Opportunity (Gal. 3:26-28)

7)Escrow Blessings (Eph. 1:3)

8)Eternal Life (1 John 5:11-13)

9)Eternal Security (John 10:29; Rom.8:31-32; Rom. 8:1; 2 Cor. 5:17; 1 Peter 1:5; 1 Cor. 12:21; John 10:28)

10)The filling of the Holy Spirit (Eph. 5:18; Gal. 5:16; John 4:24)

11)A Secure, Immovable Foundation (1 Cor. 3:11; Eph 2:20; Deut. 32:4)

12)Being Presented as a gift from God the Father to God the Son (John 10:29; John 17:2; John 17:6; John 17:9; John 17:11; Rev. 19:7-10; Rev.19:16)

13)Deliverance from the Great White Throne Judgment and the Lake of Fire (John 3:18; Rom. 8:1)

14)Identification with God the Son in Biblical Analogy (1 Cor. 15:45; 2 Cor. 15:17; Col. 1:18; Heb. 13:20; John 15:5; Eph. 2:20; 1 Peter 2:5-6; Heb. 4:14; 1 Peter 2:9; Rev. 19:7; Rev. 19:14-16)

15)The Indwelling of God the Father (John 14:22-23; Eph.4:6; Phil. 2:13; 1 John 4:15; 2 John 1:9)

16)The Indwelling of God the Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:11;1 Cor. 3:16; 1 Cor. 6:19; 2 Cor. 6:16)

17)The Indwelling of God the Son (John 14:20; John 17:22-23,26; Rom. 8:10; 2 Cor. 13:5; Gal. 2:20; Col.1:27)

18)An Eternal Inheritance (Heb. 9:15; Eph. 1:14; 1 Peter 1:4)

19)Justification (Gal. 2:16; Tit. 3:7; Rom 3:28)

20)Transference into the Kingdom of God (Eph. 2:3; Col. 1:13)

21)Deliverance from the Kingdom of Satan (Col. 1:13)

22)The New Spiritual Species (2 Cor. 5:17; Gal 6:15)

23)Positional Sanctification--adopted as Adult sons (Rom. 8:15; [Rom. 8:23-future]; Eph. 1:5)

24)Predestination (Eph. 1:5)

25)The Ten Problem-Solving Devices of the Predesigned Plan of God ( Refer to the link that I will provide at the bottom of this list.)

26)Propitiation (Rom. 3:24-25; 1 John 2:2, 4:10)

27)The Unique Predesigned Plan of God for the Church-age (Gal. 5:16; Eph 3:18. Refer to link for greater detail)

28)Reconciliation (2 Cor.5:19; Rom. 5:10)

29)Redemption (Eph. 1:7; Col. 1:14)

30)Regeneration (John 3:5-16; Titus 3:5)

31)The guarantee of a Resurrection Body (John 11:25; 1 Cor. 15:43; Phil. 3:20-21)

32)The Imputed Righteousness of God (Rom. 3:22; 2 Cor. 5:21)

33)The Royal Ambassadorship (2 Cor. 5:20; Phil. 3:20)

34)Entrance into the Royal Family of God (Rev. 1:6; Acts 1:5; Rom. 6:3-4; 1 Cor. 6:19-20)

35)The Royal Priesthood (1 Peter 2:5; Rev. 1:6; Rev. 5:10)

36)The Removal of all Scar Tissue from the Soul (Isa. 43:25,44:22)

37)The Sealing Ministry of the Holy Spirit (Eph. 1:13-14)

38)Deliverance from the Power and Influence of the Old Sin Nature (Rom. 2:29; Phil. 3:3; Col. 2:11; Eph. 4:22; 1 John 1:9; John 8:34; John 8:36)

39)The Distribution of Spiritual Gifts (1 Cor.12:7-11; Eph. 4:11)

40)The Unlimited Atonement (2 Cor. 5:14-15; 1 Tim. 2:6;4:10; Titus 2:11; 1 John 2:2; Rom. 5:6

These 40 grace gifts are described in the following publication.

The Grace Gifts given at Salvation - Publications - Robert McLaughlin Bible Ministries / Grace Bible Church - bible doctrine truth in Christ

And they are irrevocable.

Regarding number 10 however - the filling of the Spirit, that is lost every time a believer commits a sin, and is restored when the sin is named as per 1 John 1:9.

The believer is eternally secure. He can never lose his salvation. Those believers who do not understand this will never be grace oriented and will never advance in their spiritual lives. They will never get out of spiritual kindergarden.

Now here are the links again with regard to Hebrews 6:4-8

BIBLE STUDY MANUALS: HEBREWS CHAPTER 6

Falling Away? A Study of Hebrews 6 | GraceThruFaith

No Second Repentance? Hebrews 6:4-8 (http://www.faithalone.org/news/y1992/92july3.html - broken link)
I should add that not everyone answers the call of the gospel. 2 Thess. 2:14 states that God calls through the gospel. ''And it was for this He called you through our Gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord.'' Those who do answer the call irrevocably have all of the 40 things stated above.

The doctrine of calling ---> Bible Doctrine Resource.com » Doctrine of Calling
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Old 11-30-2011, 07:56 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,941 posts, read 26,170,830 times
Reputation: 16099
Quote:
Originally Posted by Howest2008 View Post
The only thing that you have proven thus far is that if you want to be kept by GOD there is eternal Salvation for you , but on the other hand if you don't " you lose your SALVATION " .
Eternal life is irrevocable. God does not and cannot take back the free gift of eternal life.

Your reply simply shows the stubborn resistance of the legalist who will not listen to what the scriptures say about the eternal security of the believer.

Your eternal salvation depends upon God. Not on you. Once a person has trusted in Christ for eternal salvation he is saved forever.

Legalism always attacks grace.
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Old 11-30-2011, 08:02 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 6,917,441 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Legalism always attacks grace.

Indeed, that is what resists the declaration by God that not only has he given salvation freely to everyone, he will bring all to meet the requirements.
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Old 11-30-2011, 08:17 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,941 posts, read 26,170,830 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No, it does not mean that there is going to be a dialog. I have provided sufficent information from the Scriptures to show that the believer has eternal security. You can either believe it or not believe it. I don't particularly care. You are responsible for what you believe. And you must bear the consequences. All I can do is point out the truth. No legalist is grace oriented. The legalist has no concept of what God's grace really means. And as a matter of fact, if a person has never understood that eternal salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, but has instead attempted to earn his salvation, he isn't even saved, and is on his way to hell.
I should clarify that the person who has NEVER understood that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, and has always attempted to earn his salvation through his works, and dies without ever having understood the issue, then because he never placed his faith in Christ ALONE, he was never saved in the first place. Eternal salvation is offered only as a free gift. If you try to work for your salvation, it is not a gift but something which is owed. And God does not owe you eternal life.

But if a person HAS at some point in his life simply trusted in Christ alone for his salvation, he is saved forever and ever. Even if he loses his faith after having been saved. Eternal life given to the one who has believed in Christ is irrevocable.
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Old 11-30-2011, 08:18 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 7,632,635 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
So, are you stating that it is possible (according to your beliefs) that a person could effectively be destined to be eternally separated from God before they die and there would be nothing they could do about it?
O.K. Phaze..here we go again...again...


No, it isn't me that is making this statement, it is the word of God. I just happen to believe it, and you don't.

Read it again...

Hebrews 6:

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

6:4 It is impossible for those who were once enlightened - With the light of the glorious love of God in Christ. And have tasted the heavenly gift - Remission of sins, sweeter than honey and the honeycomb. And been made partakers of the Holy Ghost - Of the witness and the fruit of he Spirit.

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6:5 And have tasted the good word of God - Have had a relish for, and a delight in it. And the powers of the world to come - Which every one tastes, who has an hope full of immortality. Every child that is naturally born, first sees the light, then receives and tastes proper nourishment, and partakes of the things of this world. In like manner, the apostle, comparing spiritual with natural things, speaks of one born of the Spirit, as seeing the light, tasting the sweetness, and partaking of the things of the world to come.

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

6:6 And have fallen away - Here is not a supposition, but a plain relation of fact. The apostle here describes the case of those who have cast away both the power and the form of godliness; who have lost both their faith, hope, and love, Heb 6:10, and c., and that wilfully, Heb 10:26. Of these wilful total apostates he declares, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance. (though they were renewed once,) either to the foundation, or anything built thereon. Seeing they crucify the Son of God afresh - They use him with the utmost indignity. And put him to an open shame - Causing his glorious name to be blasphemed.

A shortened version:

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Got it?
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Old 11-30-2011, 08:25 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 6,917,441 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
O.K. Phaze..here we go again...again...
So what?

Quote:

No, it isn't me that is making this statement, it is the word of God. I just happen to believe it, and you don't.
Actually I can prove you wrong about this kind of statement. You would have also said that God was saying what you would say before you changed you views that ultimatly led to you leaving Christianity.


So you are saying, whether or not you say the word of God says it. That there are people that even if they wanted to repent in this life, could not.


Talk about a lie.


It is always trustworthy to confess Jesus as Lord and if our humanity forgets that in our lives God never gives up on us, in this life or after we are gone. It is a shame that you pretend to be holy when your words to me show otherwise. If you were actually holding yourself to your own doctrine, youd realize that you yourself is beyond redemption, but you'd never admit it because you know how false that idea actually is.
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Old 11-30-2011, 08:29 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 6,917,441 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I should clarify that the person who has NEVER understood that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, and has always attempted to earn his salvation through his works, and dies without ever having understood the issue, then because he never placed his faith in Christ ALONE, he was never saved in the first place. Eternal salvation is offered only as a free gift. If you try to work for your salvation, it is not a gift but something which is owed. And God does not owe you eternal life.

But if a person HAS at some point in his life simply trusted in Christ alone for his salvation, he is saved forever and ever. Even if he loses his faith after having been saved. Eternal life given to the one who has believed in Christ is irrevocable.


You can actually trust in Christ but think that Christ has instructed you to have to do things in your life for the reward of salvation and still be saved.

That is one example of how our works can be burned but yet we are saved.
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Old 11-30-2011, 08:32 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 7,632,635 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
So what?



Actually I can prove you wrong about this kind of statement. You would have also said that God was saying what you would say before you changed you views that ultimatly led to you leaving Christianity.


So you are saying, whether or not you say the word of God says it. That there are people that even if they wanted to repent in this life, could not.


Talk about a lie.


It is always trustworthy to confess Jesus as Lord and if our humanity forgets that in our lives God never gives up on us, in this life or after we are gone. It is a shame that you pretend to be holy when your words to me show otherwise. If you were actually holding yourself to your own doctrine, youd realize that you yourself is beyond redemption, but you'd never admit it because you know how false that idea actually is.
whatever.
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Old 11-30-2011, 08:34 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 12,434,921 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Eternal life is irrevocable. God does not and cannot take back the free gift of eternal life..
Really .. "cannot" ... are saying that "With God all things are possible" is not true?
Revelation 2 (To the Church of Ephesus)
Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken your first love.
Remember the height from which you have fallen!
Repent and do the things you did at first.
If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.
The word is a "lamp to my feet" and Jesus is the "light of the world" ...
Guess what happens Mike to the light (which comes from the lampstand) when the lampstand is removed by God ..... the people are in darkness. No one who is in the darkness is saved Mike.

There is a reason why OSAS \ Millennium has historically been considered heresy.
You may not be aware of how many of the same arguments you're making sound very much like the way a UR theologist presents their case.
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Old 11-30-2011, 08:40 AM
 
Location: On a road heaven bound !
10,295 posts, read 9,661,585 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Really .. "cannot" ... are saying that "With God all things are possible" is not true?
Revelation 2 (To the Church of Ephesus)
Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken your first love.
Remember the height from which you have fallen!
Repent and do the things you did at first.
If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.
The word is a "lamp to my feet" and Jesus is the "light of the world" ...
Guess what happens Mike to the light (which comes from the lampstand) when the lampstand is removed by God ..... the people are in darkness. No one who is in the darkness is saved Mike.

There is a reason why OSAS \ Millennium has historically been considered heresy.
You may not be aware of how many of the same arguments you're making sound very much like the way a UR theologist presents their case.
I do have to say.... amen !!! And have thought the same with UR and OSAS theology, there really is not different, just worded differently !!
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