A glitch in God's plan? (messages, scriptures, prayer, sinned)

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by katiemygirl

Although Adam and Eve lacked knowledge of good and evil, that doesn't mean they didn't understand obedience/disobedience or that they were completely ignorant of right and wrong. Even now humans don't completely get good and evil. We're not ignorant of it, but we constantly debate moral issues. God personally taught Adam it was wrong to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. He taught him what the consequences would be (death). We can assume God also taught him the concept of death. IMHO Adam and Eve had the foundation of moral knowledge. Even though little children don't have knowledge of good and evil, they do have a sense of right and wrong. Watch little kids play sometime. They know it's wrong if someone takes a toy from them they had first. A kid knows it's wrong to cut in line.

Without the tree of knowledge of good and evil Adam and Eve would have been forced to obey God, but God wanted them to have the choice. God gave Adam and Eve the command to test them, to let them choose to obey or not.

That's my opinion for what it's worth. Tell me how you see it.
Katie

Sorry, Katie . . . but teaching, at the very basic level, requires experiencing more than explanation. Words have no meaning without some base to relate them to. If you sit down and discuss all the ramifications of touching fire with your toddler, you are wasting your time. An intellect without experience cannot be taught by talking. There are certain basics in life that must be experienced.

Once your toddler touches something painfully hot, he will learn what the words "hot" and "burn" mean. Thereafter, when you tell him not to touch the end of a cigarette because it is hot and will burn him, he can relate what you have told him to his basic experience and learn about cigarettes burning without experiencing it. Let's face it, you wouldn't want your child to learn about hot and burn by touching the red-hot electric burner on your stove and receiving third degree burns! On the other hand, your child must learn consequences in some fashion. All of parenthood consists of orchestrating and controlling the experiences of our children so that they learn the basics in the safest and least harmful ways. It is the human condition.

[katiemygirl]

Originally Posted by ChristyGrl

It just astounds me that people don't understand the metaphor being imparted by the story...but instead read the story "literally" as if it were "literal" event in history which completely falls apart and fails if read that way. One can't KNOW and NOT KNOW at the same time...it's just not possible.

Are you so positive it's not literal? My husband said something to me. He said, "Nothing in the Bible can be proven. It's all about faith." I thought that was a pretty good statement.

We can all speculate about Adam and Eve, but none of us can prove a thing. It all boils down to whether or not we have faith.

Jesus wants us to have the faith of a small child. We can choose to believe the story of Adam and Eve as something that really happened or we can reject it. I don't have all the answers but I believe it literally took place just as it is written.

Faith! That's what it's all about. And from that true faith will spring obedience.

Respectfully,

Katie

[katiemygirl]

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

Sorry, Katie . . . but teaching, at the very basic level, requires experiencing more than explanation. Words have no meaning without some base to relate them to. If you sit down and discuss all the ramifications of touching fire with your toddler, you are wasting your time. An intellect without experience cannot be taught by talking. There are certain basics in life that must be experienced.

Once your toddler touches something painfully hot, he will learn what the words "hot" and "burn" mean. Thereafter, when you tell him not to touch the end of a cigarette because it is hot and will burn him, he can relate what you have told him to his basic experience and learn about cigarettes burning without experiencing it. Let's face it, you wouldn't want your child to learn about hot and burn by touching the red-hot electric burner on your stove and receiving third degree burns! On the other hand, your child must learn consequences in some fashion. All of parenthood consists of orchestrating and controlling the experiences of our children so that they learn the basics in the safest and least harmful ways. It is the human condition.

It's all about faith, my friend.

It also seems like you are equating Adam and Eve with toddlers. I don't see that in the story.

Katie

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by katiemygirl

It's all about faith, my friend.
It also seems like you are equating Adam and Eve with toddlers. I don't see that in the story.
Katie

I understand, sis. Of course they were toddlers spiritually . . . they had just been born. They knew nothing and had no experience base for anything. They were spiritual toddlers in physically adult bodies. We forget this is ALL about our spiritual evolution and development as a species . . . not our carnal existence as physical beings. That is why it requires spiritual understanding to see the truth in scripture.

[katiemygirl]

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

I understand, sis. Of course they were toddlers spiritually . . . they had just been born. They knew nothing and had no experience base for anything. They were spiritual toddlers in physically adult bodies. We forget this is ALL about our spiritual evolution and development as a species . . . not our carnal existence as physical beings. That is why it requires spiritual understanding to see the truth in scripture.

We do not know that they were spiritual toddlers. Who knows how long they had been in existence before they were tempted, a hundred years, a thousand? Who knows? How much did God teach them? It is all speculation on our parts bro. It still all boils down to faith and obedience. I have a tendency to believe everything in the Bible. I never question it. I figure I have nothing to lose by having that kind of faith.

Kate

[Princely]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

When God placed Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden and told them not to eat the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, did He expect them to obey His commandment or did their disobedience come as a surprise to Him?

Why, if it was His intention that they remain forever in their garden paradise, did He permit Satan to tempt them with the promise of godhood? Or did Satan gain entrance to the Garden without God's permission? Was this all part of a plan that unfolded as it did for a very good reason or was the Fall of Adam an enormous, unforeseen glitch in God's plan for mankind?

It was no glitch, God knew what the plan was but man does not. It has always been for man to serve God. It reads this way through out the bible.Mankind is not made in Gods image yet.It is an on going process.There are some who have been made in Gods image, they are son of man.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by katiemygirl

Although Adam and Eve lacked knowledge of good and evil, that doesn't mean they didn't understand obedience/disobedience or that they were completely ignorant of right and wrong. Even now humans don't completely get good and evil. We're not ignorant of it, but we constantly debate moral issues. God personally taught Adam it was wrong to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. He taught him what the consequences would be (death). We can assume God also taught him the concept of death, although it's quite possible Adam witnessed the death of animals and so u nderstood. That is pure speculation on my part. IMHO Adam and Eve had the foundation of moral knowledge. Even though little children don't have knowledge of good and evil, they do have a sense of right and wrong. Watch little kids play sometime. They know it's wrong if someone takes a toy from them they had first. A kid knows it's wrong to cut in line. IMHO, Adam and Eve were created as adults not babies. I can't prove that, but that is the impression I get. We do know that God spoke with Adam and Eve often in the garden. I would imagine He personally taught them a whole lot.

Without the tree of knowledge of good and evil Adam and Eve would have been forced to obey God, but God wanted them to have the choice. God gave Adam and Eve the command to test them, to let them choose to obey or not.

Hi, Katie. Just when we were seeing eye-to-eye on so many things, we run into this issue. Oh well, I guess it had to happen, didn't it? We can't agree on everything.

As you've seen by now, I more or less agree with both ChristyGrl and Mystic on this issue, although I'm sure even the three of us are not in perfect agreement. My feelings are that initially, Adam and Eve were introduced only to good, and not to evil. Until they were confronted by Satan, there is no record that they ever had to choose between good and evil or needed to discern between right and wrong. You're right in pointing out that the Bible doesn't tell us a great deal about their life in Eden; we don't even know how long they were there. Like you, I visualize them as adults, but unlike you, I don't think they had the insight to be able to make choices in the way an adult would. They were as innocent and pure as little children (you and I do agree that little children are born innocent and pure ). God undoubtedly taught them about "good," but because their entire existence evolved around what was "good," they had no frame of reference with respect to its opposite. Stop and think about good health for a minute. If you'd never in your life experienced illness, how much of a concept do you think you'd have of what good health really was? All of us know how wonderful it is to recover after having been really sick. That's because we've experienced both health and sickness. The same could be said for joy and sorrow, pleasure and pain, and pretty much every kind of emotion, sensation or experience life affords us.

I believe that they could not fully appreciate or even really comprehend good until they were also presented with evil. I can't understand God personally introducing evil into their lives, but I can understand Him allowing someone else to. When they yielded to the temptation Satan presented them, they came to know the flip side of "good." And it was only by doing so that they could take the next step -- learning to choose good over evil, learning obedience and faith in God.

I am curious as to what you believe the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil represented, if you do not believe its fruit was, in fact, the source of new wisdom for Adam and Eve. I don't understand how they could have lacked a knowledge of good and evil and yet been able to realize that disobeying God was evil.

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by katiemygirl

We do not know that they were spiritual toddlers. Who knows how long they had been in existence before they were tempted, a hundred years, a thousand? Who knows? How much did God teach them? It is all speculation on our parts bro. It still all boils down to faith and obedience. I have a tendency to believe everything in the Bible. I never question it. I figure I have nothing to lose by having that kind of faith.
Kate

It is a very plausible speculation, Sis. The entire history of our species reveals an extremely slow evolution of spiritual understanding and maturity . . . based on our actions and attitudes. But . . . you are correct . . . there is nothing to lose as long as it leads us to "love God and each other" as Christ commanded. It is that state of mind in love that matters most . . . not our intellectual preferences.

[pneuma]

Originally Posted by ChristyGrl

That is pure speculation and NOT what the story tells us. The story clearly tells us THEY DID NOT KNOW WHAT GOOD AND EVIL WAS...these are the FACTS that are given us. If one has NO KNOWLEDGE how can one be obedient or disobedient???

If one doesn't KNOW what being obedient or disobedient is...how can one hold it against them??? Think about this...

Actually the story say no such thing, that just your interpretation of it. Your under the assumption that the only way to learn good and evil was by eating the fruit. But there are two ways to gain knowledge of good and evil. One to disobey the other is to obey and the law will be written in the heart.

The tree was desired to make one wise.

Well who better to give you wisdom the voice of God(Christ)?

The same voice that spoke with Adam each day.

Adam was not created a child but a full blown son of God.

A Father does not give into a sons hands His business until the son come of age to be able to work the business.

God placed Adam in the garden to dress and KEEP it.

A keeper of the garden was a watchman

A watchman is not one that has no knowledge of good and evil.

[pneuma]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

So, why do you think God made it so easy for Adam and Eve to fail at what He asked of them? He gave them a beautiful garden home, and told them they could eat anything in the Garden except for the fruit from one tree. He even told them what would happen if they disobeyed. Hypothetically, let's say that Satan had not been allowed to tempt them. Wouldn't they still have had their free will, their right to choose to either obey or disobey? The fact that God allowed the epitome of evil to tempt them with godhood is pretty significant, in my opinion. It kind of seems to me as if the deck was stacked against Adam and Eve. But since God is good himself, there must have been a pretty good reason for Him to have made the playing field so unlevel.

I don't see the playing field as unlevel

You have the voice of God

You have the voice of the serpent

Choose

The choice you make will be the one you serve

It was just as easy for Adam to obey as disobey, yet he choose to disobey.

Remember Eve was deceived into eating from the tree, it say nothing about Adam being deceived. Adam openly disobeyed God's commandment.