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So are you saying God did not know what was going to take place? He had a back up plan, in case it went wrong?
God did not know whether Adam would eat from the tree until He searched Adams heart, after He searched Adam heart He knew Adam would eat. In other words God did not know what Adam would do until just before Adam did it.
And yes He had a plan in case Adam was disobedient.
Quote:
If that is the case, then He is not all knowing, wouldn't yo think?
Your understanding of Gods all-knowing aspect is not quite correct. Augustine is the perpetrator of that understanding of Gods all-knowing aspect.
Where man is concerned God has to search mans heart before He knows what man will do, once He has done the search He then knows ALL that man will do.
Example of this start with His questioning of Adam: Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
If God knew before hand that Adam was going to disobey then why the questions? It is only speculations of man because of Augustine that people say God questioned Adam for Adams benefit.
At the tower of Babel: I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know
If God knew before hand that S&G was in such a sad state, why does He say that He would go down to SEE if they did everything according to what He had heard and if not then He would know?
His testing of Abraham:And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
If God knew before hand that Abe would sacrifice Isaac why does He say after the test know I know.....?
God told Hezekiah he would die of his sickness, however Hezekiah prayed and God changed His mind and added 15 years to the life of Hezekiah.
Did God lie to Hezekiah the first time about his dying? If He foreknew that Hezekiah would pray and He would add 15 years to his life would that not make His first statement that Hezekiah would die a lie?
God told Jonah that He would destroy Nineveh in 40 days, yet Nineveh prayed and God repented of what He said He would do.
If God foreknew Nineveh would repent and be spared was He then lying to them when He said they would be destroyed in 40 days?
If God know what we will do before we are even born why does He put an "IF" in the things He tells us?
If you obey may voice I will do this, but if you disobey my voice I will do that.
What! Is God hedging His bet so they He will never be wrong? Or is it because He does not know what man will do until just before man does it?
This is my understanding of Gods foreknowledge
Gods foreknowledge of an event does NOT have to be 1 day (or something that happens tomorrow), 100 years or a 1000 years before the event happens. Gods Foreknowledge can be something that He sees 30 seconds before the event takes place and it would still be foreknowledge.
I am only going to give one set of scriptures (you know the other ones I have used) to show forth this principle.
Remember the other scriptures I gave as you read this.
And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. 12And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me
Gods foreknowledge and Gods all-knowing aspect work hand in hand although they are different aspects.
Gods foreknowledge of what man will do any given moment comes from His presence of always being with man. By always being with man He searches out the intent of mans heart and know what man will do before man does it.
It is not the type of foreknowledge that knows 1 day in the future (as tomorrows breakfast), but rather the foreknowledge that takes place just before (30 seconds) before the event actually takes place.
Back to the scriptures I just gave.
What those scriptures show is that God knew just before (30 second)(30 seconds is just an example it could have been a minute) Abe withheld nothing from him. This can be seen in that God stopped Abe BEFORE Abe actually killed his son.
Thus Gods foreknowledge and His all-knowing aspect work wonderfully together.
God’s foreknowledge
For the purpose of this article when I speak of Gods foreknowledge as being static, I am referring to the idea that Gods foreknowledge is understood as being BEFORE the creation of the world.
God’s foreknowledge of things is not always static.
When God is speaking of the things He will do, the things He plans and carries out Gods foreknowledge is static.
However, when God is speaking concerning the freewill of man Gods foreknowledge is not static.
We need to learn to rightly divide the scriptures.
Let’s look at Gods static foreknowledge.
Isaiah 46:10
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
This scripture is always used to show that Gods foreknowledge is static; however, it is used to show that Gods foreknowledge is ALWAYS static. But is that really what it shows? Or does it show that God’s foreknowledge is static because it is speaking of the things God will do?
Let’s look at the rest of those scriptures.
Isaiah 46:10-13
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. 12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: 13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.
These are all things God will do; they have NOTHING to do with what man will do.
That Gods static foreknowledge of what He will do is our assurance that when we use our freewill and become disobedient to God, God will remould and remould us as many times as need be to make us into a vessel of honour. Our freewill cannot stop God from doing all His pleasure, as He will just keep responding to the movement of the clay until the clay is made into a vessel of honour.
However, Gods foreknowledge is not always static, when man is concerned God foreknowledge is dependent on the freewill of man.
Let’s see if this is also true.
2Kings 20
Hezekiah was sick unto death, and God sent Isaiah to him to tell him to put his house in order for he would die of his sickness. Hezekiah obviously did not believe Gods prophesy concerning him was static as he prayed to God concerning his death. God heard his prayer and sent Isaiah back with a different prophecy. I will add 15 years to your life.
Now if Gods foreknowledge is always static why did Hezekiah not die from his sickness as God said he would? If God foreknew Hezekiah would pray and that He would add 15 years to Hezekiah’s life was it not a lie God told Hezekiah when He told him he would die?
Here we see that prayer can change Gods mind, and if God can change His mind is it not obvious that His foreknowledge is not always static?
Here are a couple more scriptures that show prayer can change Gods mind about things He has said He would do.
Ex.32:9-14
Nu.14:12-20
If I was writing a book, I could go on and on with many such scripture. Scriptures that show disobedience, obedience, repentance, prayer etc. can and has changed Gods mind concerning things He has said He would do.
Even in the very beginning, in Gods dealing with man, we see were God changed His mind because of man’s disobedience. God told Adam that he could freely eat of every tree in the garden except one. However, when Adam disobeyed God the garden became off limits to Adam and Adam could no longer freely eat from the trees in it.
Even Jesus did not believe God’s will was always static, as He prayer that the cup be removed from Him. We know that the cup was not removed from Him, however that Jesus prayed that it be removed shows Jesus believed prayer can change Gods mind.
As I said I could go on and on, but if people cannot see God foreknowledge is not static in regards to man by the scriptures I have already given they will not see it if I posted a hundred scriptures.
Therefore, I am only going to refer the reader to one more scripture.
If God foreknowledge is always static, why does God say that when Israel sent their children into the fires of Moloch that doing this had NEVER ENTERED INTO HIS MIND?
Jeremiah 19:5
5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:
If God knows all thing’s man will do before man sets their hearts on doing them, then surely God would have foreknown that Israel would send their children into the fires of Moloch. Yet He says this never entered into His mind.
Quote:
When He drove Adam and Eve from the garden He set a guard to the tree of life, He could of set a guard at the tree of KOG&E to begin with, could He not?
Yep, but then where would be the choice between life and death?
Actually the story say no such thing, that just your interpretation of it. Your under the assumption that the only way to learn good and evil was by eating the fruit. But there are two ways to gain knowledge of good and evil. One to disobey the other is to obey and the law will be written in the heart.
The tree was desired to make one wise.
Well who better to give you wisdom the voice of God(Christ)?
The same voice that spoke with Adam each day.
Adam was not created a child but a full blown son of God.
A Father does not give into a sons hands His business until the son come of age to be able to work the business.
God placed Adam in the garden to dress and KEEP it.
A keeper of the garden was a watchman
A watchman is not one that has no knowledge of good and evil.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
I don't see the playing field as unlevel
You have the voice of God
You have the voice of the serpent
Choose
The choice you make will be the one you serve
It was just as easy for Adam to obey as disobey, yet he choose to disobey.
Remember Eve was deceived into eating from the tree, it say nothing about Adam being deceived. Adam openly disobeyed God's commandment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
God did not know whether Adam would eat from the tree until He searched Adams heart, after He searched Adam heart He knew Adam would eat. In other words God did not know what Adam would do until just before Adam did it.
And yes He had a plan in case Adam was disobedient.
Your understanding of Gods all-knowing aspect is not quite correct. Augustine is the perpetrator of that understanding of Gods all-knowing aspect.
Where man is concerned God has to search mans heart before He knows what man will do, once He has done the search He then knows ALL that man will do.
Example of this start with His questioning of Adam: Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
If God knew before hand that Adam was going to disobey then why the questions? It is only speculations of man because of Augustine that people say God questioned Adam for Adams benefit.
At the tower of Babel: I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know
If God knew before hand that S&G was in such a sad state, why does He say that He would go down to SEE if they did everything according to what He had heard and if not then He would know?
His testing of Abraham:And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
If God knew before hand that Abe would sacrifice Isaac why does He say after the test know I know.....?
God told Hezekiah he would die of his sickness, however Hezekiah prayed and God changed His mind and added 15 years to the life of Hezekiah.
Did God lie to Hezekiah the first time about his dying? If He foreknew that Hezekiah would pray and He would add 15 years to his life would that not make His first statement that Hezekiah would die a lie?
God told Jonah that He would destroy Nineveh in 40 days, yet Nineveh prayed and God repented of what He said He would do.
If God foreknew Nineveh would repent and be spared was He then lying to them when He said they would be destroyed in 40 days?
If God know what we will do before we are even born why does He put an "IF" in the things He tells us?
If you obey may voice I will do this, but if you disobey my voice I will do that.
What! Is God hedging His bet so they He will never be wrong? Or is it because He does not know what man will do until just before man does it?
This is my understanding of Gods foreknowledge
Gods foreknowledge of an event does NOT have to be 1 day (or something that happens tomorrow), 100 years or a 1000 years before the event happens. Gods Foreknowledge can be something that He sees 30 seconds before the event takes place and it would still be foreknowledge.
I am only going to give one set of scriptures (you know the other ones I have used) to show forth this principle.
Remember the other scriptures I gave as you read this.
And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. 12And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me
Gods foreknowledge and Gods all-knowing aspect work hand in hand although they are different aspects.
Gods foreknowledge of what man will do any given moment comes from His presence of always being with man. By always being with man He searches out the intent of mans heart and know what man will do before man does it.
It is not the type of foreknowledge that knows 1 day in the future (as tomorrows breakfast), but rather the foreknowledge that takes place just before (30 seconds) before the event actually takes place.
Back to the scriptures I just gave.
What those scriptures show is that God knew just before (30 second)(30 seconds is just an example it could have been a minute) Abe withheld nothing from him. This can be seen in that God stopped Abe BEFORE Abe actually killed his son.
Thus Gods foreknowledge and His all-knowing aspect work wonderfully together.
God’s foreknowledge
For the purpose of this article when I speak of Gods foreknowledge as being static, I am referring to the idea that Gods foreknowledge is understood as being BEFORE the creation of the world.
God’s foreknowledge of things is not always static.
When God is speaking of the things He will do, the things He plans and carries out Gods foreknowledge is static.
However, when God is speaking concerning the freewill of man Gods foreknowledge is not static.
We need to learn to rightly divide the scriptures.
Let’s look at Gods static foreknowledge.
Isaiah 46:10
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
This scripture is always used to show that Gods foreknowledge is static; however, it is used to show that Gods foreknowledge is ALWAYS static. But is that really what it shows? Or does it show that God’s foreknowledge is static because it is speaking of the things God will do?
Let’s look at the rest of those scriptures.
Isaiah 46:10-13
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. 12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: 13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.
These are all things God will do; they have NOTHING to do with what man will do.
That Gods static foreknowledge of what He will do is our assurance that when we use our freewill and become disobedient to God, God will remould and remould us as many times as need be to make us into a vessel of honour. Our freewill cannot stop God from doing all His pleasure, as He will just keep responding to the movement of the clay until the clay is made into a vessel of honour.
However, Gods foreknowledge is not always static, when man is concerned God foreknowledge is dependent on the freewill of man.
Let’s see if this is also true.
2Kings 20
Hezekiah was sick unto death, and God sent Isaiah to him to tell him to put his house in order for he would die of his sickness. Hezekiah obviously did not believe Gods prophesy concerning him was static as he prayed to God concerning his death. God heard his prayer and sent Isaiah back with a different prophecy. I will add 15 years to your life.
Now if Gods foreknowledge is always static why did Hezekiah not die from his sickness as God said he would? If God foreknew Hezekiah would pray and that He would add 15 years to Hezekiah’s life was it not a lie God told Hezekiah when He told him he would die?
Here we see that prayer can change Gods mind, and if God can change His mind is it not obvious that His foreknowledge is not always static?
Here are a couple more scriptures that show prayer can change Gods mind about things He has said He would do.
Ex.32:9-14
Nu.14:12-20
If I was writing a book, I could go on and on with many such scripture. Scriptures that show disobedience, obedience, repentance, prayer etc. can and has changed Gods mind concerning things He has said He would do.
Even in the very beginning, in Gods dealing with man, we see were God changed His mind because of man’s disobedience. God told Adam that he could freely eat of every tree in the garden except one. However, when Adam disobeyed God the garden became off limits to Adam and Adam could no longer freely eat from the trees in it.
Even Jesus did not believe God’s will was always static, as He prayer that the cup be removed from Him. We know that the cup was not removed from Him, however that Jesus prayed that it be removed shows Jesus believed prayer can change Gods mind.
As I said I could go on and on, but if people cannot see God foreknowledge is not static in regards to man by the scriptures I have already given they will not see it if I posted a hundred scriptures.
Therefore, I am only going to refer the reader to one more scripture.
If God foreknowledge is always static, why does God say that when Israel sent their children into the fires of Moloch that doing this had NEVER ENTERED INTO HIS MIND?
Jeremiah 19:5
5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:
If God knows all thing’s man will do before man sets their hearts on doing them, then surely God would have foreknown that Israel would send their children into the fires of Moloch. Yet He says this never entered into His mind.
Yep, but then where would be the choice between life and death?
Right... Choose. You have no idea that the serpent is evil. You don't even know the difference between what's good and what's evil. You don't know what a lie is. You know nothing of deception. Does godhood sound nice? Sure.
Quote:
It was just as easy for Adam to obey as disobey, yet he choose to disobey.
So why do you think God allowed Satan to tempt them? It would have been a whole lot easier to obey if God had just told them not to eat the forbidden fruit and left it at that. They would still have had their free will.
Quote:
Remember Eve was deceived into eating from the tree, it say nothing about Adam being deceived. Adam openly disobeyed God's commandment.
Eve would have been cast out of the Garden and Adam would have remained there -- making the commandment to multipy and replenish the earth a bit of a problem.
Are you so positive it's not literal? My husband said something to me. He said, "Nothing in the Bible can be proven. It's all about faith." I thought that was a pretty good statement.
We can all speculate about Adam and Eve, but none of us can prove a thing. It all boils down to whether or not we have faith.
Jesus wants us to have the faith of a small child. We can choose to believe the story of Adam and Eve as something that really happened or we can reject it. I don't have all the answers but I believe it literally took place just as it is written.
Faith! That's what it's all about. And from that true faith will spring obedience.
Respectfully,
Katie
Let's just use some logic here...okay??? Given that we KNOW that the origin story in the bible was around and written by other cultures that predate the Israelites/Jews...common sense and logic tells us that it can't possibly be a "literal" story. Now based on those FACTS...can you still claim it is a "literal" story or can there just be spiritual messages being imparted by the various stories???? Faith, FACTS, experience, common sense and logic tell me that there is much more to the story than a "literal" event.
I understand, sis. Of course they were toddlers spiritually . . . they had just been born. They knew nothing and had no experience base for anything. They were spiritual toddlers in physically adult bodies. We forget this is ALL about our spiritual evolution and development as a species . . . not our carnal existence as physical beings. That is why it requires spiritual understanding to see the truth in scripture.
Once again...you have hit the nail on the head my friend...AWESOME post!!!!
Actually the story say no such thing, that just your interpretation of it. Your under the assumption that the only way to learn good and evil was by eating the fruit. But there are two ways to gain knowledge of good and evil. One to disobey the other is to obey and the law will be written in the heart.
The tree was desired to make one wise.
Well who better to give you wisdom the voice of God(Christ)?
The same voice that spoke with Adam each day.
Adam was not created a child but a full blown son of God.
A Father does not give into a sons hands His business until the son come of age to be able to work the business.
God placed Adam in the garden to dress and KEEP it.
A keeper of the garden was a watchman
A watchman is not one that has no knowledge of good and evil.
So, you believe that they already had the knowledge of good and evil before they ate of the tree in the story????
When God placed Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden and told them not to eat the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, did He expect them to obey His commandment or did their disobedience come as a surprise to Him?
Why, if it was His intention that they remain forever in their garden paradise, did He permit Satan to tempt them with the promise of godhood? Or did Satan gain entrance to the Garden without God's permission? Was this all part of a plan that unfolded as it did for a very good reason or was the Fall of Adam an enormous, unforeseen glitch in God's plan for mankind?
He expected their disobedience. After all they had to come to have the knowledge of Good and Evil just as God does since He was creating His own kind.
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Let's just use some logic here...okay??? Given that we KNOW that the origin story in the bible was around and written by other cultures that predate the Israelites/Jews...common sense and logic tells us that it can't possibly be a "literal" story. Now based on those FACTS...can you still claim it is a "literal" story or can there just be spiritual messages being imparted by the various stories???? Faith, FACTS, experience, common sense and logic tell me that there is much more to the story than a "literal" event.
Christy,
Did you miss my post #33? I think you may have because you didn't respond.
You seem to put your faith in the idea that the origin of the story was written by other cultures and it predates the Bible. I don't mean to sound sarcastic, but says who? Some atheist? And whoever makes this claim, are they infallible? I'm sure you could produce information to back up your claim, but there is also plenty of.Biblical evidence out there as well. Maybe your common sense and logic can't accept it as a literal story, but my faith can. I also believe there are spiritual messages and lessons to be learned by it. So on this we agree.
I'll say it again, it's all abouth faith, a constant theme that runs throughout God's word. Either you have it or you don't. T Without it you can't please God.
If one uses what you call common sense and logic, then there was no virgin birth, and Lazarus was not raised from the dead. The miracles of Jesus defy logic as well.
God gave us a choice. Have faith or rely on our own logic, understanding, common sense and wisdom.
I'll take my chances with faith. I have nothing to lose, and my life is richer because of it.
When God placed Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden and told them not to eat the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, did He expect them to obey His commandment or did their disobedience come as a surprise to Him?
Why, if it was His intention that they remain forever in their garden paradise, did He permit Satan to tempt them with the promise of godhood? Or did Satan gain entrance to the Garden without God's permission? Was this all part of a plan that unfolded as it did for a very good reason or was the Fall of Adam an enormous, unforeseen glitch in God's plan for mankind?
I believe that it was all a part of God's plan. God knows all and sees all, sees beginning to end and so He knew exactly what would happen. I believe that He has a purpose for everything that happened in the creation, even evil. I don't believe that Adam was created perfect when God created him, but that he was created perfect for God's plan. He was earthy but not a perfect man and had much to learn. If he was perfect then how could he have made the wrong "choice" and sinned? He would have known better. Jesus was perfect and always did the right thing, was always in the Father's will. He is the exact image of the Father.
But as someone shared which has always stayed with me, what was perfect health to someone who never knew what it was like to be sick? What was the appreciation for the goodness and perfection of God without the contrast of darkness? How could Adam fully appreciate the love of God for him, even when he became estranged, without seeing the need of a Savior? And so I believe that it all had to happen according to the plan of God. Jesus died for us from the foundation of the world, so God knew everything that would take place, and in knowing this, He brought it all into creation. All is out of God according to Romans 11:36 This does not mean that God is evil, but that evil has its place in the plan of God and that its defeat will manifest the glory of God. It is just like an author who writes a book or a play and has all of the elements in the story or play. This does not mean that the author is evil, if evil is one of the elements, but that it has its place in the script. God bless.
Quote:
Since in the experiences of man, evil came on the scene at the very outset of his history, we shall take a good look at Adam and his original condition as he came fresh from the hands of God. The record of his creation gives us no information as to his spiritual standing or of his moral nature. We do know that God had instructed him not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. However, this is not to say that it was God’s intention that He would not eat of it. God instructed Israel to keep His holy law which He had given to them, but it never was God’s intention that they would keep the law. In fact, God knew full well that they would not, and could not, keep that law. And when God told Adam not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, He knew full well exactly what would happen. Yet God made no provision to help Adam obey His instructions. But God had already made provision for dealing with Adam’s sin, for Peter speaks of the precious blood of Christ as of a flawless and unspotted lamb, foreknown indeed before the disruption of the world (1 Pet.1:19,20).
G. Marks
How would we ever know that we need God, that without Him we are nothing, that He is our all in all, and how could we even appreciate the depth of God's love for us in the giving of His Son without what happened in the garden?
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 12-04-2011 at 02:37 PM..
He expected their disobedience. After all they had to come to have the knowledge of Good and Evil just as God does since He was creating His own kind.
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
God's plan never has a glitch.
I agree completely!
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