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Old 12-07-2011, 02:05 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,386,559 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
...and you expect me to continue on in what you term as a "lovely conversation"...?...maybe to you, but I just don't see it that way.
I just don't get why you can't say, "kat..I don't want to answer." it's not a bad thing to say you don't want to answer. However you reveal your stubborn will when you are not willing to answer to what you believe.

I wish you well verna. Perhaps we will have another lovely discussion in the future.

I will reiterate, though, that when an archer misses the mark in practice he is doing nothing wrong, just as a person missing the mark is doing nothing wrong. To all the lurkers out there... God is love and love keeps NO record of wrongs. In-between you and success are plenty of misses. It's the only way to learn and god loves us despite our shortcomings and misses. Practice makes perfect.
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Old 12-07-2011, 03:17 AM
 
Location: US
26,256 posts, read 13,920,882 times
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  • The Law of Moses Given to Israel
The Mosaic Law is what we are most concerned about in relation to the New Testament believer. This consisted of 365 negative commands and 248 positive for a total of 613 commands. These may also be divided into three parts or sections (see below)—the moral, the social, and the ceremonial. As such, it covered every possible area of the life of Israel. It should be stressed that the moral principles embodied in the Mosaic Law given at Sinai were merely the codified expression of the eternal moral law of God as it was given to Israel to govern her life as a nation in order to experience God’s blessing under the Abrahamic covenant. - The Mosaic Law: Its Function and Purpose in the New Testament | Bible.org - Worlds Largest Bible Study Site
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Old 12-07-2011, 06:51 AM
 
2,779 posts, read 2,078,728 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
MISSING THE MARK?
Hi Verna,

I hope you don't mind my posting the Hebrew meanings of the words sin, trespass and iniquity. I thought it would be helpful to the thread. There is no way we can downplay disobedience to God, no matter what words we use to spin it.

Differences Between SIN, TRESSPASS, and INIQUITY

The Brown–Driver–Briggs Hebrew Definitions (BDB) is a lexicon of Hebrew
words keyed off of Strong's Numbers.

While all three constitute a different level of disobedience, they do carry different levels of malice.

There are 3 different types.

Cattah (Sin), Pesha (Trespass), and Avon (Iniquity)

Sin
H2398
חטא
châṭâ'
BDB Definition:
1) to sin, miss, miss the way, go wrong, incur guilt, forfeit, purify from uncleanness
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to miss
1a2) to sin, miss the goal or path of right and duty
1a3) to incur guilt, incur penalty by sin, forfeit
1b) (Piel)
1b1) to bear loss
1b2) to make a sin-offering
1b3) to purify from sin
1b4) to purify from uncleanness
1c) (Hiphil)
1c1) to miss the mark
1c2) to induce to sin, cause to sin
1c3) to bring into guilt or condemnation or punishment
1d) (Hithpael)
1d1) to miss oneself, lose oneself, wander from the way
1d2) to purify oneself from uncleanness
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 638

Trespass
H6588
פּשׁע
pesha‛
BDB Definition:
1) transgression, rebellion
1a1) transgression (against individuals)
1a2) transgression (nation against nation)
1a3) transgression (against God)
1a3a) in general
1a3b) as recognised by sinner
1a3c) as God deals with it
1a3d) as God forgives
1a4) guilt of transgression
1a5) punishment for transgression
1a6) offering for transgression
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H6586
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1846a

Iniquity
H5771
עוון / עון
‛âvôn
BDB Definition:
1) perversity, depravity, iniquity, guilt or punishment of iniquity
1a) iniquity
1b) guilt of iniquity, guilt (as great), guilt (of condition)
1c) consequence of or punishment for iniquity
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H5753
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1577a

Chatah: is a failure to live up to expectations. A failure to fulfill one’s duty. Missing the standard of God. Failing to observe His requirements for holy living.
It is considered a mistake done because of weakness, or ignorance.

Pesha: is a refusal to accept or perform the expectations of God. It is when one knows what is right and just refuses to do it or accept it. This is what we would call “rebellious” sin. Often the word trespass is used to describe pesha.

Avon: is Hebrew word describing rebellion that is twisted. Disobeying God due to thinking that is crooked or perverse. The word “iniquity” is used to describe avon in the English.

One can see that while all are sin, there are distinct differences.

Katie
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Old 12-07-2011, 09:00 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 6,234,778 times
Reputation: 837
The Law of Moses Given to Israel

The Mosaic Law is what we are most concerned about in relation to the New Testament believer. This consisted of 365 negative commands and 248 positive for a total of 613 commands. These may also be divided into three parts or sections (see below)—the moral, the social, and the ceremonial. As such, it covered every possible area of the life of Israel. It should be stressed that the moral principles embodied in the Mosaic Law given at Sinai were merelythe codified expression of the eternal moral law of God as it was given to Israel to govern her life as a nation in order to experience God’s blessing under the Abrahamic covenant.
The Origin and Source of the Mosaic Law

Though part of the Law was mediated by angels, God is the origin and source of the Mosaic Law, which stems from the eternal and holy character of God. This is true even of the natural law written in the heart or conscience of man (Exodus 31:1b; Acts 7:53; Rom. 2:14-16; Heb. 2:1-2).

It is common to divide the Mosaic Law into three parts as illustrated below, but though this is helpful for analysis and the study of the Mosaic Law and the way it functions, such a division is never stated as such in Scripture. Rather it is seen as a unit. Arguments for this will be given below.
  • Part 1: The Moral Law or the Ten Commandments. This part of the Law governed the moral life giving guidance to Israel in principles of right and wrong in relation to God and man (Exodus 20:1-17).
  • Part 2: The Judgments, or the Social Law. This part of the Law governed Israel in her secular, social, political, and economic life (Exodus 21:1–23:13).
  • Part 3: The Ordinances or the Ceremonial Law. This was the religious portion of Law which guided and provided for Israel in her worship and spiritual relationship and fellowship with God. It included the priesthood, tabernacle and sacrifices (Exodus 25:-31: Leviticus).
By its very nature, the Mosaic Law was not to be, and could not be, obeyed to the letter by any other people in any other place as a rule of life. However, in the spirit of the Law it did set forth moral principles which were applicable and would bring blessing to all people anywhere and at any time when applied and used as a standard of right and wrong.

The Mosaic Covenant, however, was a bilateral covenant. Though its ultimate fulfillment is dependent on God, for any generation to experience the blessings of the Abrahamic Covenant, there had to be faithfulness to God. Thus, enters the Law, a bilateral covenant given to Moses for the nation of Israel after their redemption out of the land of Egypt. It was through obedience to the Mosaic Covenant (the Law) that Israel would be able to experience the blessings of the Abrahamic covenant in the promised land. For obedience there would be blessings; for disobedience, cursing (cf. Deut. 28-30).

>>>The Mosaic Law was an indivisible unit, and is that which was terminated by the Lord Jesus. Though the Law is usually divided into three parts, as described above, it is important to see that it was an indivisible unit. Thus, when Paul stated that we are not under the Law, this included all three parts, including the Ten Commandments. Some will agree that parts of the Old Testament Law have been done away, but assert the Ten Commandments are supposedly still in force today. But all three parts of the Law were designed to function as a unit to guide Israel in all of its life. The Ten Commandments cannot be separated from the rest. Further, even though most recognize this three-fold division, the Jews so numbered all the commands that they approached the Law as a unit. Ryrie notes that,.....<<<<<

...blah (lie), blah (lie), blah (lie), blah(lie). All this is ^^^ is HIS opinion! not God's word!

Thus, he does not walk by the Law but by the Spirit, which is the new law for the New Testament saint (Rom. 8:4; Gal. 5:5). This is law of liberty through faith in the power of God.

He is to fulfill the righteousness of the Law, i.e., the spirit ofthe law as seen in Christ’s words in Matthew 10:37-40 (James 2:9)love for God, and love forone’s neighbor. But this can only be fulfilled through a knowledge of Bible truth and the filling of the HolySpirit, which furnishes the power or ability needed to live the Christian life according to the eternal moral law of God. So we are under God’s new law, the law of the Spirit oflife in Christ Jesus (Rom. 8:2-4).

Christ fulfilled the ceremonial ordinances, the shadows and types of His person and work, by dying onthe cross for us and in our place.
This showed that God was also perfect justice and sin must be judged, but God provided His Son, the precious Lamb of God. The penalty which the Law exercised was paid. Again there is no condemnation because the believer is “in Christ” (Col. 2:14; Rom. 3:24-25).

Christ also fulfilled the Social Law, but now He replaces it with a new way of life fitting to our new salvation. He gives provision for the inner man—the indwelling Holy Spirit—who enables us to experience true sanctification so that we may experience also the righteousness of the Law (Rom. 8:2-4).

The Threefold Duties of the New Testament Believer

In the New Testament, then, completely adequate teaching is provided as to the principles of conduct the Christian will follow if he truly presents his body “a living sacrifice” (Rom 12:1) and walks “in the Spirit” (Eph 5:9). In Titus 2:11-14 is to be found a convenient outline around which to group these principles. First in this passage it is majestically stated that God’s grace brings us salvation. But His grace then teaches us to live soberly, righteously and godly. These are three important lines of responsibility: the believer is to live soberly with regard to himself (Rom 12:3); righteously with regard to his fellow men; and godly with regard to the Lord. The same truth can be more or less expressed in a somewhat different way: We should seek to live in accordance with the precepts of grace because (1) this will please God (Heb 13:16) and will demonstrate our love for Christ (John 14:15); (2) it will help others (Matt 5:16; Titus 3:8,14); (3) it will bring true joy and blessing to our own hearts (John 15:10-11). 15
The following compilation, though not exhaustive, contains some of the most important of these precepts.Thank you for this wonderful article Richard ,,,when you leav e out his own mis-guided "OPINIONS" and false interpretations, everything he expresses above boils down to one thing...AND THAT ONW THING IS THIS:

KEEP THE THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD, INCLUDING THE 4TH ONE, TO KEEP THE SABBATH HOLY<<<(By the way, isn't is strange ... how he leaves out only the fourth comandment - but yet shares every passage that confirms...


...WHAT I HAVE BEEN TEACHING ALL ALONG!)


...just another decieved false teacher TEACHING ANOTHER FALSE GOSPEL. People just do not want to hear the truth because it is INCONVIENT!!! and uncomfortable to give God A DAY! in honor to HIM! as He commands.


Again Richard, thank you for this article.

Blessings,
Verna.
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Old 12-07-2011, 09:02 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 6,234,778 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
Hi Verna,

I hope you don't mind my posting the Hebrew meanings of the words sin, trespass and iniquity. I thought it would be helpful to the thread. There is no way we can downplay disobedience to God, no matter what words we use to spin it...
I do not mind a bit katie. It is very informative Thank you.

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Old 12-07-2011, 10:02 AM
 
3,337 posts, read 2,482,864 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post

I will reiterate, though, that when an archer misses the mark in practice he is doing nothing wrong, just as a person missing the mark is doing nothing wrong. To all the lurkers out there... God is love and love keeps NO record of wrongs. In-between you and success are plenty of misses. It's the only way to learn and god loves us despite our shortcomings and misses. Practice makes perfect.
The comparison is flawed as most are.

When an archer misses in battle or practice, the outcome is different than if he didn't miss.

When a sinner misses the target of perfection... in practice or battle the outcome is the same... He has sinned.

Does Jesus want us to miss the mark?
Does He want us to keep his promises/commandments?

Does Jesus condone Sin?

Are all things possible with Christ?

Are we lazy and complacent in our walk?

Is it possible to overcome sin?
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Old 12-07-2011, 10:45 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,386,559 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by modeerf View Post
The comparison is flawed as most are.

When an archer misses in battle or practice, the outcome is different than if he didn't miss.
Actually, I beg to differ. It is the same and I believe that is why the word choice in scripture. If an archer misses in practice it's like a sinner working toward not sinning. When in battle, there are consequences to missing the mark just like if a sinner sins knowing it's missing the mark.

Quote:
When a sinner misses the target of perfection... in practice or battle the outcome is the same... He has sinned.
Sin comes with natural consequences. Do you think the bible says God demands perfection? Or working toward perfection? Because missing the mark is the only way a person can experience why that choice was missing the mark. This is how we learn. Do you think God is just dumb enough to expect perfection from imperfect beings?

Quote:
Does Jesus want us to miss the mark?
I think he fully expected it in the practice of sinlessness.
Quote:
Does He want us to keep his promises/commandments?
of course.. He fully expected the apostles to love God and their fellow man as themselves. If everyone does that without judgment of others, this world would be so much easier to live in! Wouldn't you agree?

Quote:
Does Jesus condone Sin?
He must if he was able to hang out with sinners... Right? He says "Go and sin no more.." Not "you filthy sinner.. Go to hell."

Quote:
Are all things possible with Christ?
I don't know.. But scripture tells us with God all things are possible. Does that mean it's possible to be sinnless? I think it is possible... Here's how I see it... God is love. With LOVE all things are possible.

Quote:
Are we lazy and complacent in our walk?

Is it possible to overcome sin?
see above...
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Old 12-07-2011, 10:56 AM
 
3,337 posts, read 2,482,864 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post

Sin comes with natural consequences. Do you think the bible says God demands perfection? Or working toward perfection? Because missing the mark is the only way a person can experience why that choice was missing the mark. This is how we learn. Do you think God is just dumb enough to expect perfection from imperfect beings?
Careful!

Mat 5:43 ¶ Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.


Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;


Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.


Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?


Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others]? do not even the publicans so?


Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Quote:
I think he fully expected it in the practice of sinlessness.
of course.. He fully expected the apostles to love God and their fellow man as themselves. If everyone does that without judgment of others, this world would be so much easier to live in! Wouldn't you agree?
If you have not love, everything else is nothing. Agreed.
Quote:
He must if he was able to hang out with sinners... Right? He says "Go and sin no more.." Not "you filthy sinner.. Go to hell."
He hung out with people that knew they were sinners, and lead them to a new promise of repentance and forgiveness. Not condoning, not accepting.

Quote:
I don't know.. But scripture tells us with God all things are possible. Does that mean it's possible to be sinnless? I think it is possible... Here's how I see it... God is love. With LOVE all things are possible.

see above...
Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
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Old 12-07-2011, 11:10 AM
 
37,500 posts, read 25,232,088 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by modeerf View Post
Careful!
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
The word translated as "perfect" is teleios and it does not have the colloquial meaning of "perfection" that we understand today. It really means "mature."
Quote:
If you have not love, everything else is nothing. Agreed.
He hung out with people that knew they were sinners, and lead them to a new promise of repentance and forgiveness. Not condoning, not accepting.
Wrong. Christ was accepting . . . but NOT condoning . . . that is a huge difference in understanding God's love.
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Old 12-07-2011, 11:20 AM
 
3,337 posts, read 2,482,864 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
The word translated as "perfect" is teleios and it does not have the colloquial meaning of "perfection" that we understand today. It really means "mature."

No, that is the excuse of religion hypocrisy and mans justifications. Matthew clearly says to be Perfect as God is Perfect.. Mature? just doesn't have the same power as Perfect. It is why the word Perfect is used. Everyone knows God is Mature, and others reach maturity in the flesh without much effort or care.

Enoch was also a Perfect man, and he did not see death... the proof of overcoming sin.

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Jesus overcame the world, which is a fallen sin filled place. Through His guidance and power, we too, can overcome. You must first believe it is possible, before that fruit will produce its goodness.

Quote:
Wrong. Christ was accepting . . . but NOT condoning . . . that is a huge difference in understanding God's love.
That is what i said. He doesn't condone sin.
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