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Old 12-10-2011, 04:35 PM
 
Location: Florida
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Originally Posted by O-Ducky View Post
Nice thread! And happy Holy Sabbath Day!!!
Thank you it has been full of blessings.
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Old 12-10-2011, 04:39 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
MISSING THE MARK?

When the question of sin comes up Christian teachers are quick to point out that sin has to do with "missing the mark".

The Greek word Sin hamartia (G264) is derived from the root word hamartanō (G266) which historically was an archers term that means to "miss the mark" . (See definitons below):

With that in mind, Modern Christianity in an attempt to trivialize willful sin often says something like this:

"Therefore to sin merely means to miss the mark; which seems to be a small thing since nobody hits the mark every time - right? After all nobody is perfect."

To understand the true meaning it must be understood that the root word meant much more than just missing the bulls eye from time to time. It means to miss the mark and so not share in the prize.

For example: Think of a King gathering an army of archers and he had them tested to see if they could hit a target with their bow an arrow. Those who missed the mark were disqualified.

That is the sense of the Greek word "hamartanō" The archer did not get more chances - it was miss and out. The word denotes failure with consequences.

In the Biblical sense the word "sin" which is derived from "hamartanō" refers to those who miss the mark by breaking God's commandments - that was how John used it in context concerning willful sin.

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth SIN transgresseth also the law: for SIN is the transgression of the law.

Those who sin ignorantly have missed the mark God has established in the ten commandments. They can be forgiven.

Those who commit sin (miss the mark) willfuly, are not children of God.

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;

Definitions:
G266 hamartia sin - offence, sin (-ful). -From G264;

(G264 hamartanō properly to miss the mark (and so not share in the prize),
Verna, you throw the words wilful sin around all the time as if you know/understand what wilful sin is. But it's obvious by the way you speak of it you don't know/understand what the writer of Heberws meant when he used the words.

This passage, BTW is the only place the word wilful connected with sin is used. Don't you find that a bit strange considering how you keep saying ppl that sin wilfully are doomed?

Heb. 10:
24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
26 For if we sin wilfully [hekousios]after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Before I remind you [I say remind for another poster on here has told you this same thing already{sorry, don't remember who the poster is}] that the passage above is not speaking of ppl just sinning any SIN.

It speaks of ppl who have accepted Christ's sacrifce and left behind the 'old life' and then forsook it all, to go back to their old ways. It speaks of ppl who have forsaken Judaism and accepted Christ and then went back to their old belief system [thus putting Christ to open shame].

So unless you and I and all the ppl you're trying to warn on here about wilful sin are "Jews" who once embraced Him and who've then left Christ behind, you are preaching in vain.

It's the same thing as spoken of here:

Heb. 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and *put him to an open shame.

* put Him to open shame: paradeigmatizo. Only here and in Matt. 1:19 [where the texts read degmatizo] and in Col. 2:15. The warning again is if, after accepting Christ the Messiah as Lord, they go back to Judaism, they cut themselves off. [see Gal. 5:4]

Of coures even though the warning is for apostates who go back to Judaism, it remains a solemn warning to all who profess to 'believe.'

So, again, the only ppl that are sinning wilfully are Jewish ppl who once accept Christ and then refuse Him.

And BTW the word wilful is the same as willingly as used here:

1 Pet.5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; [hekousios]not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

And here:

Phm14 But without thy mind would I do nothing; that thy benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but willingly.[hekousios]
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Old 12-10-2011, 10:12 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 6,242,597 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
Verna, you throw the words wilful sin around all the time as if you know/understand what wilful sin is. But it's obvious by the way you speak of it you don't know/understand what the writer of Heberws meant when he used the words.
Excuse me mshipmate, but you are wrong. I do understand what willfull sin is. I am pleased to see that it concerns you though. God bless you.

It doesn't matter how many "times" the word "willfull" is written in Scripture, one time is sufficient...but there are more.

DID YOU KNOW - The Word of God is written to, and to be understood only by, His children ?

BY the Holy Spirit, through the father's of old and the prophets...all the "we's"..."you's"..."our's"..."us's" spoken of by them are those who "KNOW GOD", and the only one's who KNOW GOD...the only one's GOD KNOWS are those who...have OVERCOME their fleshly desires...and no longer willfully sin.

1 John 2:13 I write to you, fathers, because you have known Him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I write to you, dear children, because you have known the Father

************************************************** ****

* Willfull sin is sin you commit with malice of forethought.

forethought - (a.) Thought of, or planned, beforehand; aforethought; prepense; hence, deliberate.

forethought - (n.) Deliberation, consideration,or planning beforehand. 2. Preparation or thought for the future; anticipation.

make provision for - (n.) That which is provided or prepared; that which is brought together or arranged in advance; measures taken beforehand; preparation.

self-willed - Romans 2:8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.


Romans 13:14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not *provision* for the flesh, to fulfill the lusts thereof.

Job 29:14 I put on righteousness as my clothing; justice was my robe and my turban.

************************************************** ***

* Willfull sin is sin done presumptiously.

Psalms 19:13 Keep back thy servant also from *presumptuous* sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.

************************************************** ***

* Willfull Sin is the transgression of the law (otherwise known as "the great transgression" ).

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Numbers 15:30 "'But anyone who sins *defiantly*, whether native-born or alien, blasphemes the LORD, and that person must be cut off from his people.

Psalm 18:23 I have been blameless before him and have kept myself from sin.

Psalm 18:32 It is God who arms me with strength and makes my way perfect.

Psalm 119:133 Direct my footsteps according to your word; let no sin rule over me.

Hosea 8:5 Throw out your calf-idol, O Samaria! My anger burns against them. How long will they be *incapable* of purity?

************************************************** ***

* The law is the Ten Commandments of God.

Deuteronomy 4:13 And he declared unto you his *covenant*, which *he commanded you to perform*, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

************************************************** ***

* Therefore if you willfully, knowingly break any one of those commandments, you are a wicked, willfull sinner.

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

1 John 3:4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.

************************************************** ***

* Willfull Sin is an act of someone who does not walk in the Spirit of Christ, but in the flesh.

Galatians 5:16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature.

************************************************** ***

* Willfull Sin is an act that a repentant, born-again, born of God, child of the Living God does not commit...that is an oxymoron...

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

1 John 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

************************************************** ***

* One cannot call the LORD, LORD, while committing willfull sin...that too is an oxymoron. To call the LORD, LORD, means you acknowledge Him as your KING, and you are within His Kingdom, under His rule, and you obey Him...and He takes care of you. To be a member of His Kingdom, you MUST! be a repentant, born-again, CHANGED!, free from willfull sin, born of God, child of God...

Galatians 3:27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Ephesians 4:24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

Colossians 3:10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate
This passage, BTW is the only place the word wilful connected with sin is used. Don't you find that a bit strange considering how you keep saying ppl that sin wilfully are doomed?

Heb. 10:
24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
26 For if we sin wilfully [hekousios]after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
mshipmate, Hebrews 10:24-27 is a perfect example of what God expects of those who have repented of their sins, changed from the old man into the new man, born of God...born-again, child of God. >>>>>>>>After having received the experimental knowledge of the gospel truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins<<<<<<<<...If you haven't received this truth, and live it!, then this passage means nothing to you...it isn't speaking to you...you are a willfull sinner, and until you come to this place of being totally committed and submitted to God, you are not born of God, and He does not know you...yet. But once you do repent with godly sorrow, and a contrite heart, and He shares with you the gift of the baptism of the indwelling Holy Spirit of Christ, and you turn back to your sin like a dog turns back to eat his vomit...you are finished....Thus saith the Lord God Almighty...It is written!...see Hebrew 10:24-27.

This is why you and the others have heard me say so many times that the false teachings of Modern Day Christianity (for all the past generations, until this day, even on until the coming of our King), are just that - FALSE!

Until one is truly born again, they will continue to commit willfull sin.

So, they are NOT born again when they repeat a few words after the pastor or "whoever" and walk away fom the alter (if there was/is one)...

...They are saved if they asked Jesus, with a pure heart, to come into their lives and take over. Saved and Salvation are two different things altogether.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate
Before I remind you [I say remind for another poster on here has told you this same thing already{sorry, don't remember who the poster is}] that the passage above is not speaking of ppl just sinning any SIN.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate

It speaks of ppl who have accepted Christ's sacrifce and left behind the 'old life' and then forsook it all, to go back to their old ways.
Amen...see my explanation just above ^^^ .


Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate
It speaks of ppl who have forsaken Judaism<<<YOUR OPINION! mshipmate...and accepted Christ and then went back to their old belief system [thus putting Christ to open shame].

BOLDED GREEN BY VERNA.

Hebrews 10:26 means - For when we - Any of us Christians. Sin wilfully - By total apostasy from God, termed drawing back, Heb 10:38 (10:38 Now the just - The justified person. Shall live - In God's favour, a spiritual and holy life. By faith - As long as he retains that gift of God. But if he draw back - If he make shipwreck of his faith My soul hath no pleasure in him - That is, I abhor him; I cast him off. Hab 2:3). >>>>>>>>After having received the experimental knowledge of the gospel truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins<<<<<<<< - None but that which we obstinately reject.

Hebrews 10:27 means - He that presumptuously transgresses the law of Moses dies without mercy - Without any delay or mitigation of his punishment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate
So unless you and I and all the ppl you're trying to warn on here about wilful sin are "Jews" who once embraced Him and who've then left Christ behind, you are preaching in vain.

Ahhh but you err mshipmate in your understanding of Scripture

Who is the "Wild Olive Branch" ? that gets grafted into the "Olive Tree" ?


Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and *thou*, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

11:17 Thou - O gentile. Being a wild olive tree - Had the graft been nobler than the stock, yet its dependance on it for life and nourishment would leave it no room to boast against it. How much less, when, contrary to what is practised among men, the wild olive tree is engrafted on the good!
commentary by Wesley.


Romans 11:24 For if *thou* wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

11:24 means, Contrary to nature - For according to nature, we graft the fruitful branch into the wild stock; but here the wild branch is grafted into the fruitful stock.

...*thou*...is Gentiles who believe and walk in the will of the Father...the BORN OF GOD! They are a PART OF THE FAMILY OF GOD - CALLED ISRAEL - WE ARE "SPIRITUAL ISRAEL" .

1 Peter 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

Romans 2:9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;

Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate
It's the same thing as spoken of here
Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate
:

Heb. 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and *put him to an open shame.

* put Him to open shame: paradeigmatizo. Only here and in Matt. 1:19 [where the texts read degmatizo] and in Col. 2:15. The warning again is if, after accepting Christ the Messiah as Lord, they go back to Judaism<<YOUR OPINION! mshipmate..., they cut themselves off. [see Gal. 5:4]
BOLDED GREEN BY VERNA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate
Of coures even though the warning is for apostates who go back to Judaism, it remains a solemn warning to all who profess to 'believe.'
BOLDED BLACK BY VERNA.
A - M - E - N ! ! ! A WARNING TO ALL WHO PROFESS TO BELIEVE ! ! !

Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate
So, again, the only ppl that are sinning wilfully are Jewish ppl who once accept Christ and then refuse Him.

Almost got it ! ...the only people that are sinning willfully who will not be forgiven again for turning back to willfull sin are ALL who have received the Knowledge od Truth in Christ Jesus...which is this: One who is born of God cannot continue to commit willfull sin and still receive eternal life. Until you are one of these, you are a willfull sinner, in need of a Savior! You are NOT born again...and you are not born of God...you still willfully sin, and have not repented of them yet.

They do not teach you this in "church" .

Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate
And BTW the word wilful is the same as willingly as used here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate

1 Pet.5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; [hekousios]not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

And here:

Phm14 But without thy mind would I do nothing; that thy benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but willingly.[hekousios]
Very good.



Love in Christ Jesus,
Verna.



...and then there is sin that can be forgiven, that does not lead to death, called "sins of ignorance."

1 John 5:17 All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

Last edited by Verna Perry; 12-10-2011 at 11:10 PM..
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Old 12-10-2011, 11:24 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,399,716 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
Verna, you throw the words wilful sin around all the time as if you know/understand what wilful sin is. But it's obvious by the way you speak of it you don't know/understand what the writer of Heberws meant when he used the words.

This passage, BTW is the only place the word wilful connected with sin is used. Don't you find that a bit strange considering how you keep saying ppl that sin wilfully are doomed?

Heb. 10:
24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
26 For if we sin wilfully [hekousios]after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Before I remind you [I say remind for another poster on here has told you this same thing already{sorry, don't remember who the poster is}] that the passage above is not speaking of ppl just sinning any SIN.

It speaks of ppl who have accepted Christ's sacrifce and left behind the 'old life' and then forsook it all, to go back to their old ways. It speaks of ppl who have forsaken Judaism and accepted Christ and then went back to their old belief system [thus putting Christ to open shame].

So unless you and I and all the ppl you're trying to warn on here about wilful sin are "Jews" who once embraced Him and who've then left Christ behind, you are preaching in vain.

It's the same thing as spoken of here:

Heb. 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and *put him to an open shame.

* put Him to open shame: paradeigmatizo. Only here and in Matt. 1:19 [where the texts read degmatizo] and in Col. 2:15. The warning again is if, after accepting Christ the Messiah as Lord, they go back to Judaism, they cut themselves off. [see Gal. 5:4]

Of coures even though the warning is for apostates who go back to Judaism, it remains a solemn warning to all who profess to 'believe.'

So, again, the only ppl that are sinning wilfully are Jewish ppl who once accept Christ and then refuse Him.

And BTW the word wilful is the same as willingly as used here:

1 Pet.5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; [hekousios]not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

And here:

Phm14 But without thy mind would I do nothing; that thy benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but willingly.[hekousios]
Unfortunately, Christians have not realized the difference between this interim period of Judaism to Christian and so erroneously conclude this time applies to them now. In context your post makes perfect sense but again the modern day Christian does not take into account that these were Jews who were converting to Christianity. They think it all still applies to them now.
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Old 12-10-2011, 11:36 PM
 
1,534 posts, read 1,595,339 times
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Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Unfortunately, Christians have not realized the difference between this interim period of Judaism to Christian and so erroneously conclude this time applies to them now. In context your post makes perfect sense but again the modern day Christian does not take into account that these were Jews who were converting to Christianity. They think it all still applies to them now.
Thanks katjonjj. Verna would save herself [and those who have to read her long posts ] a lot of time and trouble if she'd just stop and think and apply some common sense and realize who the book of Hebrew was written to!! Ah Hebrews as the name says. And then she goes on to say the words there for Hebrew ppl applies to all believers and when I correct her she says IT'S JUST YOUR OPINION!!

Does that mean we shouldn't read it and learn from the lessons in it. No.

Just as ppl forget Paul wrote certain, and different things to individual churches he was addressing and ppl assume ALL of it applies to all of us.

Excellent example. "YOUR woman should keep silent..." Written to the church at Cornith regarding certain woman; not to ALL woman. See chapter 11 where Paul says woman are to prophecy.
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Old 12-10-2011, 11:42 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 6,242,597 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Unfortunately, Christians have not realized the difference between this interim period of Judaism to Christian and so erroneously conclude this time applies to them now. In context your post makes perfect sense but again the modern day Christian does not take into account that these were Jews who were converting to Christianity. They think it all still applies to them now.
Bolded black by Verna.

You have it turned around katjonjj.

The modern day Christian (non-Jew), who has been taught by Modern Day False Teachers, are the one's who believe that Hebrews 10:24-27 isn't speaking to them. They (you) believe, in error, that it does not apply to them (you).

It is those like me, who do not believe in the Modern Day Christianity false teachings, who KNOW they are considered "spiritual Israel", who KNOWS Hebrews 10:24-27 is speaking to them. WE KNOW that it all still applies to us (spiritual Israel).
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Old 12-10-2011, 11:43 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 6,242,597 times
Reputation: 837
Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
Thanks katjonjj. Verna would save herself [and those who have to read her long posts ] a lot of time and trouble if she'd just stop and think and apply some common sense and realize who the book of Hebrew was written to!! Ah Hebrews as the name says. And then she goes on to say the words there for Hebrew ppl applies to all believers and when I correct her she says IT'S JUST YOUR OPINION!!

Does that mean we shouldn't read it and learn from the lessons in it. No.

Just as ppl forget Paul wrote certain, and different things to individual churches he was addressing and ppl assume ALL of it applies to all of us.

Excellent example. "YOUR woman should keep silent..." Written to the church at Cornith regarding certain woman; not to ALL woman. See chapter 11 where Paul says woman are to prophecy.
Is this all you have in response to my reply back to you mshipmate?
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Old 12-11-2011, 12:10 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 6,242,597 times
Reputation: 837
Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
Thanks katjonjj. Verna would save herself [and those who have to read her long posts ] a lot of time and trouble if she'd just stop and think and apply some common sense and realize who the book of Hebrew was written to!! Ah Hebrews as the name says. And then she goes on to say the words there for Hebrew ppl applies to all believers and when I correct her she says IT'S JUST YOUR OPINION!!

Does that mean we shouldn't read it and learn from the lessons in it. No.

Just as ppl forget Paul wrote certain, and different things to individual churches he was addressing and ppl assume ALL of it applies to all of us.

Excellent example. "YOUR woman should keep silent..." Written to the church at Cornith regarding certain woman; not to ALL woman. See chapter 11 where Paul says woman are to prophecy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
Is this all you have in response to my reply back to you mshipmate?
...oh well...someone out there will receive these precious seeds of truth - and live.

I have a dream...I'm going to bed. Good night and God Bless.
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Old 12-11-2011, 12:44 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,399,716 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
Bolded black by Verna.

You have it turned around katjonjj.

The modern day Christian (non-Jew), who has been taught by Modern Day False Teachers, are the one's who believe that Hebrews 10:24-27 isn't speaking to them. They (you) believe, in error, that it does not apply to them (you).

It is those like me, who do not believe in the Modern Day Christianity false teachings, who KNOW they are considered "spiritual Israel", who KNOWS Hebrews 10:24-27 is speaking to them. WE KNOW that it all still applies to us (spiritual Israel).
Just FYI.. I'm not a Christian nor a Jew so I am just reading the bible as I would any other book. In context. It is not rocket science. Whether you say one willfully sins or not, the bible was really written as letters to specific people who actually read the letters.

In my world there is not willful sin nor unwillfull/accidental sin because you either hit the mark or miss it. Missing it is actually practice in hitting the mark. All roads lead to God. It's which one you take that determines how hard a life you have.

The bible says to love one another. If you do that you can't sin. IMO.
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Old 12-11-2011, 10:44 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
The bible says to love one another. If you do that you can't sin.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
Well, stay in your world. I'll remain in His Truth.
Unfortunately, when a person wields a two-edged sword, they often miss the whole point.

"The truth is found in his love for all humanity."
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