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Old 01-05-2012, 03:00 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,310,682 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cxjonz View Post
1. No. Christ himself is not the gate for he describes it as an article for use i.e. "make every effort to use it" which shows individual responsibility to use and is indicitive of a very seroius consenquence if you refuse. The many multitudious camp you are in assumes that the crucfixion of Jesus is in place of which corresponds to an observance of the OT wirtten code i.e. sacrifice in place of. You have much to great a number and it cannot resonate with Jesus designating that there are "only a few that find it", and your soteriological conjecture does only resonate as an observance of the OT code.
I'm using your term "gate" as in "door", here:

Joh 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

You didn't give a particular scripture so I took the liberty with reference to Christ, as in:

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Quote:
2. Your assumtion that the OT scriptures have clearly defined what the true purpose and actual reason Jesus' crucifixion was for is another error. Paul clearly counters your conjecture in 1 Cor.2:8. If there had been any possibility that any information was avaliable from any source which would have allowed the actual determination of why Jesus was to be crucified he would have never been crucfied.
The fact that it was hidden from "the princes (or rulers) of this world" does not mean it was not revealed to those being saved. Everyone who believed during the OT believed the same Gospel we do today. Look, here:

Rom 1:1 PAUL, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
Rom 1:2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

and here:

Isa 53:1 WHO hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

with Paul's interpretation, here:

Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Like today, not all believed the Gospel in Isaiah's day either.

Quote:
3. Am I in any way countering the scriptures you have cited in support of your hypothesis? No. What I am actually countering is the false interpretation of the scriptures you have been taught and believed with the preexisting counters already in the scriptures.
I've simply quoted you scripture. It's not my "hypothesis" that you're countering. Perhaps it's what the Gospel says? The Gospel is said to be hid to those who are lost:

2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

To those who believe, the Gospel comes in power, in the Spirit and with much assurance:

1Th 1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

Did you receive this Gospel?
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Old 01-05-2012, 03:05 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,822 posts, read 9,796,719 times
Reputation: 1300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
No Water baptism is not necessary.
Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, ( necessary ) but whoever does not believe will be condemned. ( not absolutly necessary)
Ephesians 5:25-26
Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word
Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit
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Old 01-05-2012, 03:47 PM
 
299 posts, read 210,280 times
Reputation: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
I'm using your term "gate" as in "door", here:

Joh 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

You didn't give a particular scripture so I took the liberty with reference to Christ, as in:

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

The fact that it was hidden from "the princes (or rulers) of this world" does not mean it was not revealed to those being saved. Everyone who believed during the OT believed the same Gospel we do today. Look, here:

Rom 1:1 PAUL, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
Rom 1:2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

and here:

Isa 53:1 WHO hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

with Paul's interpretation, here:

Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Like today, not all believed the Gospel in Isaiah's day either.

I've simply quoted you scripture. It's not my "hypothesis" that you're countering. Perhaps it's what the Gospel says? The Gospel is said to be hid to those who are lost:

2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

To those who believe, the Gospel comes in power, in the Spirit and with much assurance:

1Th 1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

Did you receive this Gospel?
At one time in my life I actually did believe your conjecture. However two facts came into my view that exposed your conjecture for what it is,false.
1. Your proposal is that it is only Jesus' crucifixion that has resolved all of your difficulties with the problem of eternal death if you believe it has.
However prior to Jesus crucifixion he says that "When he comes He will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin". You see friend the man whom you calim to have solved all of your difficulties with sin says exactly the opposite and you will contest what he says is true in your next post.
2. This exact same issue comes up at the Lord's table. Not correctly discerning that the Lord's body was murdered one makes himself guilty of the Lord's body and blood when he participates in this ceremony by thinking that it is only Jesus' crucifixion which has solved his difficulties with serving the penalty of eternal death. Which is exactly what the OT code of law is specifically designed by God to do bring a sin into your mind when you have only observed it for your salvation.
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Old 01-05-2012, 04:18 PM
 
2,779 posts, read 2,076,147 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
No Water baptism is not necessary.
So obeying Jesus' command to be baptized is unecessary IYO?
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Old 01-05-2012, 04:27 PM
 
2,779 posts, read 2,076,147 times
Reputation: 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by cxjonz View Post
Confessing Jesus as Lord is not compliant with the unilateral demand God has perfected by Jesus' crucifixion.
"And for Your lifeblood I will surely DEMAND an accounting. I will DEMAND an accounting from every animal. An from EACH man, too, I will DEMAND an accounting for the LIFE of his fellow man."
This is the immutable oath registered in Heb.6. The other immutable thing registered in Heb.6, is the Law of the Spirit which has been added to the law. To be given the grace and mercy that will allow an escape from the penalty of eternal death there is only one Way to comply with the oath and the Law of the Spirit. Which is making the confession directly to God that you are truly sorry Jesus LIFE was lost by bloodshed and be baptized into this confession or you disobey the Law of the Spirit, fail to comply with God's demand and also disobey the Lord's command given throught the apsotles.
Sorry but I don't really get what you are saying. It's very unclear. Can you post scriptural support?

Romans 10:9-10 tells us that we must confess Jesus before men.

I think you may be referring to confessing our sins to God. He in turn is faithful to forgive us.

Bottom line - faith, repentance, confession, baptism, be faithful unto death brings eternal life.

Katie
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Old 01-05-2012, 04:39 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,310,682 times
Reputation: 326
Quote:
Originally Posted by cxjonz View Post
At one time in my life I actually did believe your conjecture. However two facts came into my view that exposed your conjecture for what it is,false.
1. Your proposal is that it is only Jesus' crucifixion that has resolved all of your difficulties with the problem of eternal death if you believe it has.
However prior to Jesus crucifixion he says that "When he comes He will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin". You see friend the man whom you calim to have solved all of your difficulties with sin says exactly the opposite and you will contest what he says is true in your next post.
But don't you see....The reproving (Greek ελεγξει) is because they "do not believe"...look, here:

Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

It's not that the world's sins are not forgiven (as 2 Cor 5:19 clearly states that sins are not being imputed), but rather they do not believe that they are not. They do not believe the Gospel, the Good News of what Jesus accomplished for them on the cross. Consequently, the Holy Spirit reproves, admonishes and confutes their conscience for that unbelief.

Those who believe the Gospel, the Good News, know their sins are forgiven. They receive the Gospel with power and much assurance in the Holy Spirit.

1Th 1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

Quote:
2. This exact same issue comes up at the Lord's table. Not correctly discerning that the Lord's body was murdered one makes himself guilty of the Lord's body and blood when he participates in this ceremony by thinking that it is only Jesus' crucifixion which has solved his difficulties with serving the penalty of eternal death. Which is exactly what the OT code of law is specifically designed by God to do bring a sin into your mind when you have only observed it for your salvation.
I agree that the law was a tutor, as it were, to bring us to Christ (Gal 3:24). However, that tutor is not the Gospel, nor does it save us from sin. It simply is a means used to reprove and admonish us for not believing the Gospel.
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Old 01-05-2012, 04:46 PM
 
299 posts, read 210,280 times
Reputation: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
Sorry but I don't really get what you are saying. It's very unclear. Can you post scriptural support?

Romans 10:9-10 tells us that we must confess Jesus before men.

I think you may be referring to confessing our sins to God. He in turn is faithful to forgive us.

Bottom line - faith, repentance, confession, baptism, be faithful unto death brings eternal life.

Katie
The Acts 2:28 command can only be obeyed by the faith, i.e. absolute conviction, of confessing directly to God that you are truly sorry Jesus' LIFE was lost by bloodshed when he was crucfied and be baptized into this confession before your mind will be cleared of guilt in regard to sin.
For his LIFE is a guilt offering, but it is a guilt offering only to God. Isa. 53:10b There is no other Way possible to circumcise the wicked human heart of the naturally born intrinsically. Which is something only the Living God can do.
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Old 01-05-2012, 05:03 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,310,682 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
Bottom line - faith, repentance, confession, baptism, be faithful unto death brings eternal life.

Katie
Where does scripture say that any of the things you've mentioned "brings eternal life"?

Words and phrases do have meanings, and the phrases you use are not found in scripture, or at least the scriptures I read. Can you tell me where you're getting your doctrines from? Here is what "gives life", quoted from the NASV, the closest reading I could find to your quote:

Joh 6:63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

Whatever we do in the flesh, profits us nothing.
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Old 01-05-2012, 05:09 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,310,682 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cxjonz View Post
The Acts 2:28 command can only be obeyed by the faith, i.e. absolute conviction, of confessing directly to God that you are truly sorry Jesus' LIFE was lost by bloodshed when he was crucfied and be baptized into this confession before your mind will be cleared of guilt in regard to sin.
For his LIFE is a guilt offering, but it is a guilt offering only to God. Isa. 53:10b There is no other Way possible to circumcise the wicked human heart of the naturally born intrinsically. Which is something only the Living God can do.
I'm not seeing what you're seeing in Act 2:28 or Isa 53:10. Is there a way you can quote the texts you're referring to and then give us your explanation.

Here is what scripture tells us concerning Christ's sacrifice for our sins:

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Is this what you're referring to?
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Old 01-05-2012, 05:17 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,310,682 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cxjonz View Post
and you will contest what he says is true in your next post.
Of course I will. Your posts are simply not scriptural .
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