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Old 01-18-2012, 04:28 PM
 
33 posts, read 56,084 times
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of course it is in the Catholic Church
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Old 01-18-2012, 05:01 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,251,214 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
Yes Bama, we are saved by the resurrection of Jesus. But if one doesn't have faith in the Son of God, he is eternally lost. For withouth faith it is impossible to please God.
It doesn't mean "eternally" lost. Otherwise Paul himself could never have been "saved", being himself also once in unbelief.

Quote:
So it is perfectly scriptural for us to say we are saved by faith.
As in "through" faith of Christ, faith being the instrument through which salvation is received and made known to those, in Christ, who believe. And that is the sense in which scripture uses the term faith, regarding our justification.

Gal 2:16 having known also that a man is not declared righteous by works of law, if not through the faith of Jesus Christ, also we in Christ Jesus did believe, that we might be declared righteous by the faith of Christ, and not by works of law, wherefore declared righteous by works of law shall be no flesh.'
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Old 01-18-2012, 10:43 PM
 
661 posts, read 472,893 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
Without faith it is impossible to please God. James tells us what kind of faith God wants us to have: working faith. If our faith isn't working, then it is dead.

Faith alone is dead faith.

The scenarios presented on this thread where people die before getting baptized, but had full intentions of doing so, are IMHO, straw man arguments. They prove nothing either way. These scenarios are not the norm. Those who refuse Jesus'command to be baptized are lost. That's how I see it anyway.

God bless,

Katie
And I think you've hit the heart of it Katie - those who 'refuse' to follow Jesus' command to be baptized. All those obscure possibilities of people dying en route to baptism fade into irrelevance when you put it that way.
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Old 01-19-2012, 05:15 AM
 
690 posts, read 484,601 times
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Again there’s only one baptism that counts, that’s Christ’s baptism. We must be “baptized” [Gk. literally “dipped”] INTO Jesus Christ in order to receive “salvation”. I'm going to quote from the King James bible...

Quote:
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
This "walk in newness of life" means to be “led by the Spirit" of Jesus Christ IN us. Rom 6:3-4, 11 is rich in figurative language, but the selected verses are alluding to Christ’s spirit baptism (see Mat. 3:11; Act 1:5). It appears that people have very little understanding of this spirit "baptism”.

Last edited by kids in america_; 01-19-2012 at 05:25 AM..
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Old 01-19-2012, 11:17 AM
 
531 posts, read 376,129 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
"since water baptism was not instituted until after Jesus ascended to heaven "......
What would you call the baptism of Jesus and the subsequent appearance of the Holy Spirit and the voice of the Father immediatly after Jesus stepped out of the water?
And what about the refusal of the Pharisee's for God's will for them by not being baptized for the forgiveness of sins by John (Luke 7:29-30)

Luke 3:3 He went into all the country around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.


Answer to the OP: Yes and No



A: Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved .............. Yes
A: but whoever does not believe will be condemned. ............ No
it takes 2 to save... but only one to condemn... if you don't take the first step in a journey... you'll never reach the end.
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Old 01-19-2012, 11:21 AM
 
531 posts, read 376,129 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Believing, like the thief on the cross did when he asked Jesus to forgive his sins. He was saved. No water baptism needed, because he was baptized in the Holy Spirit. Demons reject Jesus as their personal lord and savior, and therefore are not 'saved'.
oh gosh... the thief on the cross. The end all be all argument for anyone who doesn't understand baptism.

Anyone who ever comes up with the thief on the cross as an argument as to baptism not being necessary, i always ask them one question:

"If i can show you a scripture to prove that the thief didn't need to be baptized according to the doctrine of the NT , will you be willing to accept it?"

So finn, the same question to you now...

"If i can show you a scripture to prove that the thief didn't need to be baptized according to the doctrine of the NT , will you be willing to accept it?"
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Old 01-19-2012, 11:31 AM
 
531 posts, read 376,129 times
Reputation: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
It doesn't mean "eternally" lost. Otherwise Paul himself could never have been "saved", being himself also once in unbelief.
Bama... that's not what she's getting at and that's not true. If you don't have faith in God... If you don't believe that Jesus is the son of God, then you are lost and will remain that way. and if you never come to faith in God that eventually translates into eternal death, because we only have so long on this earth.

Seek the Lord while he may be found.

But if through the preaching of the Gospel, the lost hears the truth and believes the Gospel (which is the power of God unto salvation to all that believe), He/She will be saved.

People change... the Gospel is tied together with the concept of change. Just because someone doesn't believe in God or have faith in God, doesn't mean they won't ever.

What katie was getting at was that without a change of heart, they are eternally lost.

maybe you were just trying to point out the possible confusion of the language... not sure.
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Old 01-19-2012, 11:33 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 6,078,992 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
It is not funny, it is what Jesus taught. I'll take the 200 verses which announce that we are saved through faith. There are many verses specifcally warning people that salvation is NOT though works. Eph 2:8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not by works, lest any man should boast."

We DO know the mind of God when it come to the issue of the dying man. Jesus promised that if you believe, you are saved. Period.

Have a nice day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
You ARE ! saved by faith in Jesus Christ and NOT ! by works...has nothing to do with FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD FAITH. BOTH are absolutely true. Have a nice day too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Dead faith is unfortunate, but the question is whether or not works will save you, and the answer to that is NO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steph1980 View Post
The reason some of us go to great pains to define saving faith as Jesus did is that "believing" (without explaining what you mean by that) comes short of describing the nature of faith that Jesus requires of us. Even the demons believe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steph1980 View Post
Works without faith are dead.

Faith without works is dead.

Faith that works... now that's the thing!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Believing, like the thief on the cross did when he asked Jesus to forgive his sins. He was saved. No water baptism needed, because he was baptized in the Holy Spirit. Demons reject Jesus as their personal lord and savior, and therefore are not 'saved'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
It may be "the thing", but salvation comes though faith, even before you get a chance to perform your works. Some die before performing any works, but they were saved by their faith.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steph1980 View Post
You're right Finn, some people (very few) may be divinely hindered from performing any work of faith before they die. Even the thief on the cross, though, confessed out loud his faith, and defended Christ as innocent.

God knows the intent of the heart, and to suggest that you can believe with your heart and die of a heart attack the next minute before your faith finds expression, and go to hell is a huge mockery of God's grace.

Consider the example of Abraham. God commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac, and Abraham's heart was fully intent on carrying out God's command - no delaying, no questioning, just wholehearted devotion. Of course, we know that Abraham was divinely hindered in the end, but God saw the intention of Abraham's heart! He had a heart of faith.

Thoughts?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GREATDIVIDE46 View Post
The thief on the cross was not baptized in either water or the Holy Spirit, since water baptism was not instituted until after Jesus ascended to heaven and since the Holy Spirit likewise was not given to baptize people until after Jesus ascended to heaven.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
"since water baptism was not instituted until after Jesus ascended to heaven "......
What would you call the baptism of Jesus and the subsequent appearance of the Holy Spirit and the voice of the Father immediatly after Jesus stepped out of the water?
And what about the refusal of the Pharisee's for God's will for them by not being baptized for the forgiveness of sins by John (Luke 7:29-30)

Luke 3:3 He went into all the country around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.


Answer to the OP: Yes and No

A: Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved .............. Yes
A: but whoever does not believe will be condemned. ............ No
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Well, of course, I can't really pass this offer up...

Look, if you believe the Gospel (and that IS what it means to "obey" the Gospel) then you know your sins are forgiven and you know you are justified before God based upon Christ's work, as the Gospel proclaims to us (1 Cor 15:3-4). Water baptism (which is not the Gospel by the way) is an antitype (or symbol) of the Gospel and it's truth's presented to us.

What many posters are doing in this thread is taking the antitype (ie: water baptism) and substituting Christ's work with that act of being water baptized and making water baptism their savior. And by so doing, they're actually demonstrating that they've actually never "obeyed" or believed the Gospel to begin with.

If a person has never believed their sins are forgiven based upon what Christ did for them, if they've never believed that they are justified based upon what Christ has done, then that person has really never received the Gospel proclamation. Otherwise, they would know that baptism IS NOT what accomplishes these things, or even when they are accomplished, but rather testifies that they are accomplished, and believed as such.

Consequently, faith in water baptism to save you is in vain. Just as it was for those who claimed faith in the Gospel, but later denied the resurrection of Christ.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steph1980 View Post
I heard somewhere of someone saying that "if a person dies while in the waters of baptism, before his nose even breaks the surface of the water, he will be damned". I wasn't sure whether to laugh or cry at that one....! That is a mockery of God's grace.

I think what is being discussed here is the nature of the faith that is acceptable to God. Some people want to exclude every work that results from faith as completely unrelated to the faith that caused it. There just simply isn't such a distinction in Scripture though. Nothing but faith is needed for salvation, indeed --- but what are the things that accompany faith? Faith works by love. I fear that people who want to unnecessarily dichotomize faith and good works, do so for reasons of wanting people to feel secure in spite of their sinning. This is not Christianity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
But even faith is not what actually does the saving. Only what Jesus did saves us. Faith simply receives the truth of what Christ did for us as proclaimed in the Gospel. We're not saved because we believe (at least not objectively so), but rather faith brings the knowledge of our salvation to us, the knowledge of Christ's work for us to us, through which faith subjectively makes us whole. That is the role of faith. Faith is not the savior. Christ alone is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GREATDIVIDE46 View Post
You are correct. The baptism of John the Baptism was a water baptism but it was a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. The Holy Spirit was not associated with it. The baptism during which salvation takes places is a baptism is a baptism in water that results in the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit (see Acts 2:28).
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
Without faith it is impossible to please God. James tells us what kind of faith God wants us to have: working faith. If our faith isn't working, then it is dead.

Faith alone is dead faith.

The scenarios presented on this thread where people die before getting baptized, but had full intentions of doing so, are IMHO, straw man arguments. They prove nothing either way. These scenarios are not the norm. Those who refuse Jesus'command to be baptized are lost. That's how I see it anyway.

God bless,

Katie
I'm lovin' this !
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Old 01-19-2012, 03:34 PM
 
2,779 posts, read 2,015,968 times
Reputation: 228
Is Jesus your Lord? If you claim He is, then you do what He says without question.

If you say He is your Lord, then you are saying He is your authority, your ruler, your master.

How could you ever possibly say that baptism is not necessary for salvation when your LORD commanded it?

Jesus commanded baptism? Doesn't that make it necessary for salvation?

God bless,

Katie
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Old 01-19-2012, 03:58 PM
 
2,779 posts, read 2,015,968 times
Reputation: 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by kids in america_ View Post
Again there’s only one baptism that counts, that’s Christ’s baptism. We must be “baptized” [Gk. literally “dipped”] INTO Jesus Christ in order to receive “salvation”. I'm going to quote from the King James bible...



This "walk in newness of life" means to be “led by the Spirit" of Jesus Christ IN us. Rom 6:3-4, 11 is rich in figurative language, but the selected verses are alluding to Christ’s spirit baptism (see Mat. 3:11; Act 1:5). It appears that people have very little understanding of this spirit "baptism”.
You seem to be the one who doesn't understand baptism of any kind.

First off, you left out the water.

Try as you may, you can't take water out of baptism. Peter says baptism saves. He compares Noah and his family being saved through WATER. And just like they were brought safely through WATER, we too are saved through water by asking God for a clean conscience.

The water itself doesn't save you, but you cannot be saved without it.

It is only the modern day holiness movement who have taken the water out of baptism.

The only true thing you said is that we are led by the Spirit to walk in newness of life.

The Holy Spirit was sent to glorify Jesus. He should not be elevated above Jesus. Jesus died on the cross for us, not the Holy Spirit. We are baptized into Christ. In Christ, not the Holy Spirit, is where all spiritual blessings are found.

Katie
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