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Old 01-20-2012, 10:38 AM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,922,753 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steph1980 View Post
I think a very interesting counter-question to the OP is:

why would you NOT get baptized if you believe the gospel? (by "not" I also include "not, without delay").

It's not as though Jesus gave any other specific command which was to immediately follow "believing", did He?

I imagine people's answers might be pretty telling.
I don't think anyone is suggesting (at least I'm not) that one should NOT be water baptized after receiving the Gospel. They should be, as Christ commanded.

Rather, I think the disagreement is more focused on the meaning and intent of water baptism, and what role it plays within our salvation and sanctification process.

Obviously there is a lot of disagreement on that point, and no less than 53 pages so.

If one believes that the act of being water baptized is what actually accomplishes their forgiveness of sins and justifies them before God, I would say that person DOES NOT believe the Gospel nor have they received the truth of the Gospel's proclamation. That's my real focus here.
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Old 01-20-2012, 11:00 AM
 
661 posts, read 618,446 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
I don't think anyone is suggesting (at least I'm not) that one should NOT be water baptized after receiving the Gospel. They should be, as Christ commanded.

Rather, I think the disagreement is more focused on the meaning and intent of water baptism, and what role it plays within our salvation and sanctification process.

Obviously there is a lot of disagreement on that point, and no less than 53 pages so.

If one believes that the act of being water baptized is what actually accomplishes their forgiveness of sins and justifies them before God, I would say that person DOES NOT believe the Gospel nor have they received the truth of the Gospel's proclamation. That's my real focus here.
And others would say that if you do not obey Jesus, you do not believe the gospel....So it is an interesting discussion for sure. Maybe here on this forum no one would go so far as to say you shouldn't be water baptized, but there's no denying that many churches don't consider it important at all (mine included) My question is: what reasons do they have for that?? Even if the water of baptism doesn't somehow wash away your sins (or whatever).... What reasons does someone give to delay obedience to or outright ignore a plain command of their Lord?
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Old 01-20-2012, 12:29 PM
 
698 posts, read 644,054 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steph1980 View Post
And others would say that if you do not obey Jesus, you do not believe the gospel....So it is an interesting discussion for sure. Maybe here on this forum no one would go so far as to say you shouldn't be water baptized, but there's no denying that many churches don't consider it important at all (mine included) My question is: what reasons do they have for that?? Even if the water of baptism doesn't somehow wash away your sins (or whatever).... What reasons does someone give to delay obedience to or outright ignore a plain command of their Lord?
But it begs the question: Was Jesus commanding all of us to water baptize? When read in context, I observed that apparently the apostles were the ones whom Jesus commanded here.
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Old 01-20-2012, 01:08 PM
 
661 posts, read 618,446 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kids in america_ View Post
But it begs the question: Was Jesus commanding all of us to water baptize? When read in context, I observed that apparently the apostles were the ones whom Jesus commanded here.
I have to admit that I have never heard that one before

My church doesn't teach that you shouldn't be baptized, but it is just not important.

In reply to your suggestion of apostles only being commanded to baptize, I imagine there are a lot of things Jesus said to the 12 (11) or even just some of them, that we would therefore be able to disregard. Including making disciples of all nations and teaching them to obey all that Jesus commanded them. And of course, Jesus is not with US until the end of the age, but only the apostles.

But I digress.... Didn't Ananias baptize Paul? (acts 9)
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Old 01-20-2012, 01:46 PM
 
9,651 posts, read 1,171,669 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
I DO ! agree Katie ! ...I was "lovin" the positive, truthful responses by Steph and others I'm on Jesus' and your side ! ...and I gotta hand it to ya...you have a wonderful stubborn tanacity about you...which is a very good thing ...and I am loving this thread !
Verna,

I feel the same about you. We may not agree on everything but I admire the way you stand strong in what you believe to be the truth. And you work hard presenting scriptures to support your beliefs. Just keep being you.

One thing I've come to learn more and more on the forum. We really are all on the same side and must love each other instead of cutting one another down. It's hard sometimes because we're all so passionate about what we believe. The best we can all do is to keep studying God's word and try to understand what it is He wants us to do.

God bless,

Katie
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Old 01-20-2012, 02:19 PM
 
9,651 posts, read 1,171,669 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
I don't see why I should agree to play games with you. The thief was not baptized, yet he was saved. End of story. The Bible repeats 200 times you are saved through faith, and if you choose to reject those verses, then that is your choise. Obeying the instructions/commands of Jesus is an important part of Christian living, but that are instructions to people who are already saved. Salvation comes first, and it gives birth to desire to obey.
When you say, "Obeying the instructions/commands of Jesus is an important part of christian living," you are minimizing the fact that your Lord commanded baptism, therefore IT IS NECESSARY, not just important to obey that command. There are a zillion miles between important and necessary.

If you, Finn Barber, claim Jesus as your Lord, then why will you not admit that it is necessary to obey his command to be baptized?

If you say Jesus is your Lord and then turn around and say it's not necessary to obey His commands, then how can He be your Lord? To claim Him as Lord, you are saying He is your Master. You are ascribing all authority to Him. Then you turn around and deny His teaching. "Why call me Lord and not do the things I say?"

Finally, why would Jesus command us to make disciples, baptizing them if they were already christians. Jesus told us to preach the gospel to the lost not the saved. The lost is who we teach, who we make disciples of by baptizing them.

God Bless,

Katie
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Old 01-20-2012, 02:27 PM
 
9,651 posts, read 1,171,669 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
I don't think anyone is suggesting (at least I'm not) that one should NOT be water baptized after receiving the Gospel. They should be, as Christ commanded.

Rather, I think the disagreement is more focused on the meaning and intent of water baptism, and what role it plays within our salvation and sanctification process.

Obviously there is a lot of disagreement on that point, and no less than 53 pages so.

If one believes that the act of being water baptized is what actually accomplishes their forgiveness of sins and justifies them before God, I would say that person DOES NOT believe the Gospel nor have they received the truth of the Gospel's proclamation. That's my real focus here.
Bama,

Your first paragraph is right on. Baptism is necessary for salvation because our Lord commanded it. That should end the discussion.

I know of no one who believes the water is what saves. Nor does the actual act. We are saved by God's mercy, the resurrection of Jesus, and the regeneration of the Holy Spirit, and that happens when we are buried with Christ in baptism.

Blessings,

Kate
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Old 01-20-2012, 03:25 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 7,627,883 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
Verna,

I feel the same about you. We may not agree on everything but I admire the way you stand strong in what you believe to be the truth. And you work hard presenting scriptures to support your beliefs. Just keep being you.

One thing I've come to learn more and more on the forum. We really are all on the same side and must love each other instead of cutting one another down. It's hard sometimes because we're all so passionate about what we believe. The best we can all do is to keep studying God's word and try to understand what it is He wants us to do.

God bless,

Katie
Now...this is what I call precious...thank you katie...

...back atcha !Love ya !
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Old 01-20-2012, 03:33 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,922,753 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl View Post
Bama,

Your first paragraph is right on. Baptism is necessary for salvation because our Lord commanded it. That should end the discussion.
A person who has received (ie: believes) the Gospel, is saved, present tense. And that is the unequivocal position of scripture and what Jesus taught.

Quote:
I know of no one who believes the water is what saves. Nor does the actual act. We are saved by God's mercy, the resurrection of Jesus, and the regeneration of the Holy Spirit, and that happens when we are buried with Christ in baptism.
Again, your timing of "when" a person is born of God and "when" eternal life is received (if that is what you mean by being "saved") is not really scriptural. Jesus unequivocally stated:

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

And John states it also, here:

1Jn 5:1 WHOSOEVER believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Those who believe have already been born of God and have already passed from death to life.
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Old 01-20-2012, 05:06 PM
 
9,651 posts, read 1,171,669 times
Reputation: 739
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
A person who has received (ie: believes) the Gospel, is saved, present tense. And that is the unequivocal position of scripture and what Jesus taught.

Again, your timing of "when" a person is born of God and "when" eternal life is received (if that is what you mean by being "saved") is not really scriptural. Jesus unequivocally stated:

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

And John states it also, here:

1Jn 5:1 WHOSOEVER believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Those who believe have already been born of God and have already passed from death to life.
Bama,

I have asked you before to please explain verse by verse Romans 6:3-7. I am asking you again.

Also can you provide scripture that shows WHEN the Lord adds us to His church?

Kate
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