Are all men already saved? (Leviticus, Sodom, exodus, Moses)

[modeerf]

Originally Posted by trettep

So don't you think that God should at least try to persuade them to be saved?

He stands at the door and knocks. He is the still small voice within.

Can you make your kids love you (assuming you have kids)?
Would God force someone to love Him, and even if it's possible for Him to do so, would He force love, or could you even force love?

[ShanaBrown]

Is your belief that Satan formerly Lucifer will swear allegiance to Him?

Yes. Some who believe in the eventual restoration of all to God do not include satan for various reasons, but Colossians 1 teaches:


15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.*

*literally "the heavens

A question might be, who in the heavens might need to be reconciled to God?


Ephesians 2

1Also you -- being dead in the trespasses and the sins,
2in which once ye did walk according to the age of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience,


Ephesians 6

10As to the rest, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might;
11put on the whole armour of God, for your being able to stand against the wiles of the devil, 12because we have not the wrestling with blood and flesh, but with the principalities, with the authorities, with the world-rulers of the darkness of this age, with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places;

I don't believe that God is reconciling these rulers and authorities now and I don't dwell on this. Salvation now is for mankind, but evidently there will come a time when God will fill all things.

Ephesians 4:10
7and to each one of you was given the grace, according to the measure of the gift of Christ,

8wherefore, he saith, `Having gone up on high he led captive captivity, and gave gifts to men,' --
9and that, he went up, what is it except that he also went down first to the lower parts of the earth? 10he who went down is the same also who went up far above all the heavens, that He may fill all things -- (YLT)
"


God bless.

[ShanaBrown]

If He saved even one person who died rejecting Him, it would make God a liar. It is that simple.

Finn, how does this make God a liar? He has already said that all will believe. If they confess Him, they will believe. They will not reject Him forever. The love and power of God are greater than that.



Psalm 68:

18 You have ascended on high, You have led captive Your captives;
You have received gifts among men,
Even among the rebellious also, that the LORD God may dwell there. (NAS)

Philippians 2:

9wherefore, also, God did highly exalt Him, and gave to Him a name that [is] above every name,

10that in the name of Jesus every knee may bow -- of heavenlies, and earthlies, and what are under the earth -- 11and every tongue may *confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.."

*confess= exomologeo=to agree together with God or with one's conscience and to externalize that which is inside oneself, to profess, express in agreement with, to profess, confess as the truth

Isaiah 45:

There is none except Me.
22 “Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.
23 “I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will *swear allegiance.
24 “They will say of Me, ‘Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.’
Men will come to Him,
And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.
25 “In the LORD all the offspring of Israel
Will be justified and will glory.” (NAS)


*swear= shaba= to complete (seven), to swear, to confirm with an oath, to bind by an oath, to adjure,

God bless.

[ShanaBrown]

Is it wrong for the Creator to "force" or have His way with the creation, his creatures? We must remember that God is "love" and love is a powerful force in the creation. The love of God knows no limits or bounds and will open all blinded eyes and release all who are said to be captives to sin. Which would be indicative of the force of love? Allowing those who are said to be blinded, held captive, lost, sick, to stay in this state or to burn in hell for all of eternity due to the powers of darkness or would it be opening the eyes of the blind, releasing the captives, finding the lost, healing the sick, delivering the creation? Here is Paul in Romans 8 again telling us what God plans to do for all of the creation. It's right there and that is why I share it over and over.

Romans 8:

18For I reckon that the sufferings of the present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory about to be revealed in us;

19for the earnest looking out of the creation doth expect the revelation of the sons of God;
20for to vanity was the creation made subject -- not of its will, but because of Him who did subject [it] -- in * hope,
21that also the creation itself shall be set free from the servitude of the corruption to the liberty of the glory of the children of God; 22for we have known that all the creation doth groan together, and doth travail in pain together till now. (YLT)
*hope=elpis=expectation

God never fails in whatever He purposes to do. All Jesus had to do was shine a light from heaven and speak, and Paul understood then.

God will not force us against our wills, okay? But He will open all eyes and cause all to see their need for Him. He will change our wills to be in line with His, and this is not wrong because He always does what is right and He is described as love. We should not resist or be offended by the subjection or subduing of all to Himself because He is a God of love and love never fails. He will win all hearts to Himself and this is the result of effective persuasion. He already knows what it takes because He created all hearts and He knows how to reach each and every one. He knows what is best and does what is best for us = Agape love.

"Christ alone can lead man out of captivity to Satan and his own self-centered will, into the captivity of God's redemptive will. Human free will without Christ is always self will, and as such, is a helpless captive which could never, without the intervening will power of God, will itself unto salvation. It is bound to serve and obey only self and sin - Rom.6:16. Without the empowering action of the Spirit of God, nothing begins" (Genesis 1)
G. Sigler

Hallelujah
God bless.

[Finn_Jarber]

Originally Posted by trettep

I agree with you that He will not save those who choose not to believe. As a great many universalists do as well. However, my question was is He Powerful enough to cause all to believe? You didn't answer THAT question. If He is Powerful enough to cause all to believe then wouldn't you agree that if ALL believe that would mean all will be saved?

Has God caused all to believe? Look around for the answer. No, He has not. There is the answer to your question. Yes, He is powerful enough to do anything He wants, and He chooses to do certain things, while choosing to NOT to some other things. He said He will save all those who believe in Him, and if He suddenly used His power to save those who reject Him, it would make him a liar.

[Finn_Jarber]

Originally Posted by Jerwade

Or, it would mean that we lack understanding?

Maybe you do.

[Finn_Jarber]

Originally Posted by ShanaBrown

Finn, how does this make God a liar? He has already said that all will believe. If they confess Him, they will believe. They will not reject Him forever. The love and power of God are greater than that.

when you say you will do one thing, and then do something else, you are a liar. The Bible says some 200 times that only those who believe will be saved. It also says in multiple places that those who reject His will suffer eternal torment.

Believe what you wish, all this has been discussed more times than anyone can count. Universalism is a lie. Period.

[ShanaBrown]

And as has been shared, Finn, all will eventually believe. Why would He consign them to eternal torment if they believe? The scriptures do not teach eternal torment. Eternal torment denies the justice and love of God. God will have all men be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2) This is His plan and His purpose and He will accomplish this. All will not come to Him now. That is not the plan. Yes, many will reject Him now. Yes, many will experience the judgments of God. Many will perish in this age and in the age to come, but eventually all will be restored to the Father who created all things and He will be glorified by all. All were made for Him, period. Many cannot accept this now, but in time all will see. God bless.

"It actually dethrones and demeans God by teaching that man's will shall ever prevail, but that God's shall remain largely unsatisfied. If somehow the will assigned to man or even Satan, can be more potent than God's, then God would not be omnipotent at all."

G. Sigler


Psalm 68:

18 You have ascended on high, You have led captive Your captives;
You have received gifts among men,
Even among the rebellious also, that the LORD God may dwell there. (NAS)

Amen.

[Finn_Jarber]

Originally Posted by ShanaBrown

And as has been shared, Finn, all will eventually believe. Why would He consign them to eternal torment if they believe? The scriptures do not teach eternal torment.

The Bible says unbelievers are cosigned to the lake of fire, so quite obviously you are wrong. The bible says every man is destined to die, and then be judged. There is no after death salvation process in between. Such process is an invention of universalists, who had to invent something to explain away the contradictions their beliefs create, but of course when you start inventing new things you give birth to new contradictions, as has happened in this case.

[ShanaBrown]

Yes, Finn, the scriptures teach that there is a lake of fire. They do not teach that people will be tormented in a lake of fire forever. The scriptures also teach that our God is a consuming fire. The scriptures teach that after death, there is judgment. The scriptures also teach that the all creation is to be delivered one day. Let's accept all of the scriptures. What are the new contradictions? God bless.