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Old 12-12-2011, 05:41 PM
 
Location: Dallas, Texas
1,816 posts, read 2,503,570 times
Reputation: 1005

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theophane View Post
I see. Your thinking is man-based. God must redeem Himself to man and not the other way around.
Well, yea. I still don't know why the default should be "well, he created us, so therefore we should bow down." I'm not going to do that. If my reasoning skills are in fact God-given gifts, then he shouldn't be shocked if I use them in a way he doesn't approve. I'm not here to appease him. I'm here to be my own person, make my own mistakes, learn from my own lessons, live my own life, and be the best person I can. If all existence is simply "bow down to God" then that's a pretty shallow existence, I'd say.

If he doesn't like that, then, well, tough cookies, God.

 
Old 12-12-2011, 05:43 PM
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
2,705 posts, read 3,108,034 times
Reputation: 865
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fillmont View Post
Well, yea. I still don't know why the default should be "well, he created us, so therefore we should bow down." I'm not going to do that. If my reasoning skills are in fact God-given gifts, then he shouldn't be shocked if I use them in a way he doesn't approve. I'm not here to appease him. I'm here to be my own person, make my own mistakes, learn from my own lessons, live my own life, and be the best person I can. If all existence is simply "bow down to God" then that's a pretty shallow existence, I'd say.

If he doesn't like that, then, well, tough cookies, God.
I like your honesty.
 
Old 12-12-2011, 05:48 PM
 
Location: Dallas, Texas
1,816 posts, read 2,503,570 times
Reputation: 1005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theophane View Post
I like your honesty.
Hey, it's all we can ask for on boards like these. I don't honestly think I'll be swayed or do any swaying, but we can at least learn why and how other people think and feel the way we do. If that leads to more understanding and less animosity, then we've done well.
 
Old 12-12-2011, 06:15 PM
 
Location: Arizona
28,956 posts, read 16,192,722 times
Reputation: 2295
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
I say this: One must either accept God as He is or say the OT is incorrect.
To say the OT is incorrect basically means the Bible is incorrect and all that implies.
To accept God, regardless, is an act of submission to the Creator of the universe.
Interesting, Latin, uni, carries the meaning of one (uni-verse), so which verse is correct?
 
Old 12-12-2011, 07:06 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 6,980,955 times
Reputation: 1615
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fillmont View Post
Well, agreed that without suffering it would make joy less, well, joyful. Where I would take offense is that God, in this situation, would be capable of creating a world without suffering. He would have access to a true paradise, but would keep the gates locked. That to me would be the cruel part.

Keep in mind that I'm coming from the viewpoint that life on Earth is fleeting and this is all there is. Suffering, from my viewpoint, does exist, and this existence does make joy all the more joyful. But I wouldn't suggest that this is a perfect world. I'd want to work for the elimination of as much needless suffering as I could, because that is part of what makes life worth living - making the world a better place.

If, though, I die and find out that there is a better place, and that we were all kept away from it for no discernible reason? That's when I'd reject that god. (And I don't buy the idea that we would need the suffering in order to understand the joy of the perfection that followed. If it is truly perfection, we wouldn't need any background to understand it - it'd be perfect.)
I tried to tackle this dilemma of God's with a poem. No doubt the poem is lacking, but I gave it a try....

In His Shoes

Imagine that He is
but has no father or mother,
no one to whom He must answer,
yet no one to whom He may inquire.

Imagine that He is spirit
with power to create bodies,
both terrestrial and celestial,
yet cannot be reduced to a body
because He gives life to every body.

Imagine that He is Agape-Love
bound by the essence of ultimate purity,
yet He is opposed
by all sentient beings
who cannot comprehend Him
or understand His true intentions,
nor can His creatures help their lack of understanding
without His help, His love, His grace,
His granting of wisdom
to those who seek wisdom.

Imagine being God
and desiring fellowship with sentient beings
made in His likeness.

We were taught that God needs nothing and no one,
but perhaps He needed us
in order that His joy be made full.

God WAS, and IS
yet did not and does not want to BE alone!

Imagine creating such beings
without creating robots
who can only comprehend their own god-like-ness
by being made subject to sorrow and death.

Imagine that those He subjected to death,
(in order that He could convey the glory of life and righteousness and goodness),
were mostly confused by His dilemma,
or unresponsive, uninterested, unappreciative of the glory of His being
or even worse - thought him cruel or non-existent.

Imagine God wanting to be loved and understood
to the same degree that you and I want
to be loved and understood.

Imagine.
 
Old 12-12-2011, 07:45 PM
 
Location: Dallas, Texas
1,816 posts, read 2,503,570 times
Reputation: 1005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
I tried to tackle this dilemma of God's with a poem. No doubt the poem is lacking, but I gave it a try....

In His Shoes

Imagine that He is
but has no father or mother,
no one to whom He must answer,
yet no one to whom He may inquire.

Imagine that He is spirit
with power to create bodies,
both terrestrial and celestial,
yet cannot be reduced to a body
because He gives life to every body.

Imagine that He is Agape-Love
bound by the essence of ultimate purity,
yet He is opposed
by all sentient beings
who cannot comprehend Him
or understand His true intentions,
nor can His creatures help their lack of understanding
without His help, His love, His grace,
His granting of wisdom
to those who seek wisdom.

Imagine being God
and desiring fellowship with sentient beings
made in His likeness.

We were taught that God needs nothing and no one,
but perhaps He needed us
in order that His joy be made full.

God WAS, and IS
yet did not and does not want to BE alone!

Imagine creating such beings
without creating robots
who can only comprehend their own god-like-ness
by being made subject to sorrow and death.

Imagine that those He subjected to death,
(in order that He could convey the glory of life and righteousness and goodness),
were mostly confused by His dilemma,
or unresponsive, uninterested, unappreciative of the glory of His being
or even worse - thought him cruel or non-existent.

Imagine God wanting to be loved and understood
to the same degree that you and I want
to be loved and understood.

Imagine.
Thanks for the poem. You're right in that it doesn't address most of my concerns, but only because we don't really know the nature of what a God might be. I can imagine the god you depict, but that still wouldn't absolve him of what I would deem to have been gross oversights in how he set up the whole creation thing. In fact, while I'd pity this version of God to a degree, I would still pretty irked at his inability to think things through better and, as an effect, cause us to have such a difficult go at things.
 
Old 12-12-2011, 07:46 PM
 
Location: New York City
5,553 posts, read 7,975,982 times
Reputation: 1362
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theophane View Post
That's incorrect, all of it. After Jesus was crucified, the old sacrificial ways became obsolete. Men no longer had to slaughter animals to atone for their sins. After Jesus, the debt was paid in full. No more blood sacrifice, ever again.
I've always wondered about this. Folks before Jesus had to slaughter animals and mess with blood (according to Christian theology), but we lucky folks on the "A.D" side of things avoided all of that mess. What made US so special?
 
Old 12-12-2011, 07:57 PM
 
4,475 posts, read 6,659,338 times
Reputation: 6635
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fillmont View Post
I'd trust the constitution more than any God, honestly. At least the constitution was written to try to balance power among the many; a God would have free reign to just be a jerk. Give me the constitution any day!
I dont believe id call myself (personally) a Christian with an attitude like that.
 
Old 12-12-2011, 08:13 PM
 
Location: Dallas, Texas
1,816 posts, read 2,503,570 times
Reputation: 1005
Quote:
Originally Posted by pythonis View Post
I dont believe id call myself (personally) a Christian with an attitude like that.
I'm not a Christian, though. You're right though, a Christian putting more value in the constitution would be an oddity!

Quote:
Originally Posted by pythonis View Post
Wait, this is the Christianity forum and not the atheist one, right?
Yes. But no where in the rules does it state that only Christians may post in the Christian board. It is a section for the discussion of Christianity. I'm not Christian, but this topic stood out to me, as I felt I had some things to say that could be of value, and I have certainly learned a bit from reading what Christians have had to say.

As long as we're all civil, I don't see why we would want to have harshly segregated boards.
 
Old 12-12-2011, 08:34 PM
 
7,991 posts, read 12,226,862 times
Reputation: 4348
Default Mod cut #2

All may post on this forum so long as the OP is upheld, along with the Terms of Service. June would additionally ask that there be some reverence to those who are of opposing views.

Thanks, folks!

~June
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