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Old 12-14-2011, 08:31 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DNick View Post
It is saying works without faith means nothing. You need faith. But faith without work is just as useless (James)

And like I put in my last post's edit. You should start a new thread, otherwise this one will be shut down. I don't want to do that to GTBH
So you can't answer why your church has strayed from the teachings of the apostles? Yet you wonder why we don't want to recognize it as legitimate?

Really? It's all about doctrine. We aren't catholic because the catholic church is apostate. If you want to sit there and tell us to "come home to Rome", this is something we need to talk about.

And to answer your question on James....James is saying "faith without works" is simply knowledge--even the demons have that. So he's in perfect agreement that knowledge of God doesn't save.

Now...are you going to answer why your church directly contradicts the writings of Paul or not?
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Old 12-14-2011, 08:37 AM
 
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What!?! I just answered you. I responded to the scripture you gave me, and then related it to the scripture I tried to give you. And what you said about James makes no sense. Explain further.
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Old 12-14-2011, 08:38 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DNick View Post
What!?! I just answered you. I responded to the scripture you gave me, and then related it to the scripture I tried to give you.
Here it is AGAIN. You gave me an incomplete sentence trying to say we need works, when Paul says the complete opposite. I explained James is saying we need more than knowledge. You have yet to address why Paul and the Catholic Catechism are not in agreement.

As I pointed out...if you want to claim your church is the true church, explain why it strayed from the teachings of the apostles...because that's why we think your church is apostate.


Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness."
Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
Rom 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,



The catholic church teaches, on the other hand, that our works are meritorious toward salvation.

CCC 2010, "...Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life."
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Old 12-14-2011, 08:41 AM
 
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Here...I'll answer again....but bigger. Maybe you'll see my answer this time.

to him who does not work but believes, his faith is accounted to him as righteousness, like David, who was righteous apart from works. Here, Paul is emphasizing that works must be done in faith, not outside of faith. If they are done outside of faith, we are in a system of debt (God owes us). If they are done in faith (as James requires), we are in a system of grace (God rewards us). Hence, Paul accepts the works performed under God’s forbearance (grace) in Rom. 2:7,10,13 (see also Rom. 14:10-12; 1 Cor. 3:12-17; and 2 Corinthians 5:10) which lead to justification and eternal life. These verses have nothing to do with “faith alone.” Paul uses the word “alone” three times in Rom. 4:12,16,23, but never uses it with “faith.” Certainly, if he wanted to teach “faith alone,” he would have done so.
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Old 12-14-2011, 08:51 AM
 
Location: Oxford, Ohio
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Originally Posted by GoodToBeHome View Post
Here's some text that was written about 800 years before the Orthodox Churches broke from Rome.

St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book III, Chapter 3, Verse 2, ~190 A.D.:

2. Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere.


That pretty much settles it for me. In addition, I read that the Orthodox trace themselves back to Paul and the Apostles. Funny, they either exclude Peter or place Peter lower in authority than Paul. It was PETER who was clearly given the keys (Authority) in Matthew 16:13-19. Peter was the Vicar of Rome. The Catholic Church was based in Rome. It was the orthodox churches that left, not the other around. I know they will disagree, but the Early Church Fathers all understood that the one holy and apostolic church was based in Rome. The Catholic Church is based in Rome. I go to the Catholic Church.
How much do you know about the history of the EOC?

You're referencing a church father (although I have misgivings about referring to early church leaders in such a way)....someone who came after the apostles. Paul warned us about false teachers who would enter the church - even from among the believers - and lead people astray. (Acts 20:29-30) I'm not going to be so bold as to say Irenaeus was a false teacher, but I will NOT put my trust in his words. Why? Because how are we to be absolutely certain that what he taught was sound doctrine? See, that's the problem with oral tradition....you can never be absolutely certain of its authority without Scripture to base it on. It's one thing for the teachings of the apostles themselves to hold authority, because they themselves were in direct communication with Jesus while he was on earth. But once you get past them, how do you know that succeeding teachers weren't mixing in their own ideas?

Listen, I'm not trying to lead you astray or anything. But I've researched all of this for years now. What you are presenting me with is nothing I haven't already heard and considered.

I'd like to point out Galatians 5:15. These sorts of debates are NOT fruitful. And so on that note, I'm choosing not to get any more involved with this than I already have.

Last edited by insightofitall; 12-14-2011 at 09:00 AM..
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Old 12-14-2011, 08:54 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DNick View Post
Here...I'll answer again....but bigger. Maybe you'll see my answer this time.

to him who does not work but believes, his faith is accounted to him as righteousness, like David, who was righteous apart from works. Here, Paul is emphasizing that works must be done in faith, not outside of faith. If they are done outside of faith, we are in a system of debt (God owes us). If they are done in faith (as James requires), we are in a system of grace (God rewards us).
So what warrants God's forgiveness? Is it the work. or is it the faith? If it's works (even those done in faith), it is a direct contradiction to Paul. It's always been faith that saves us...not the works that said faith produces.

Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
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Old 12-14-2011, 09:01 AM
 
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Originally Posted by TheoGeek View Post
So what warrants God's forgiveness? Is it the work. or is it the faith? If it's works (even those done in faith), it is a direct contradiction to Paul. It's always been faith that saves us...not the works that said faith produces.

Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
Rom 5 never says by faith alone. and the works in Rom 11 are reffering to the Jewish works of the law.
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Old 12-14-2011, 09:02 AM
 
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Originally Posted by DNick View Post
Rom 5 never says by faith alone. and the works in Rom 11 are reffering to the Jewish works of the law.
Have you ever READ Romans?



Rom 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Rom 5:14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.
Rom 5:16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.
Rom 5:17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
Rom 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
Rom 5:19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.
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Old 12-14-2011, 09:04 AM
 
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Originally Posted by TheoGeek View Post
Have you ever READ Romans?
Of course. Have you ever READ James?
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Old 12-14-2011, 09:04 AM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
27,996 posts, read 29,823,150 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DNick View Post
It is saying works without faith means nothing. You need faith. But faith without work is just as useless (James) Both have to live in harmony with each other.
Well stated.

Quote:
And like I put in my last post's edit. You should start a new thread, otherwise this one will be shut down. I don't want to do that to GTBH
Well stated.
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