soul sleep or immortal soul (crucified, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, believer)

[Mr5150]

Originally Posted by boanerges

He actually said:

2Co 5:8 -
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

the "and to be" is future

If i said: i long to be away from my house and to be at the beach, you would not be correct to say that i said: to be away from my house "is" to be at the beach, ....or would you?

Paul wasn't dead yet when he wrote that, right?

[Torpedos]

very well said. we are a living soul.

[Mike555]

Originally Posted by mshipmate

The first thing we need to do is determine what a 'soul' is? Why? Because contrary to popular teachings/belief ppl don't 'have' a soul; [something that's seperate from the body] we are a soul.

The next thing we need to do is define the word soul:

soul: nephesh and means a living being [for man] and a living creature [for animals]

Ge 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath [ruwach=spirit] of life; and man became a living [chay=alive] soul.[nephesh]

Note it doesn't say God breathed into Adam a 'soul' but that Adam became a living soul.

Ge 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living [chay] creature [nephesh] that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was goodan became a living soul.

Now another common teaching is that man has an immortal soul. Is this what the Scriptures teach? Contrary to popular belief the answer is, no. The Scriptures teach that only God/Christ have immortality:

1 Tim. 6:
14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

And as to the teaching that a 'soul' goes to heaven or hell that too is contray to what Scriptures teach. Here's what it does teach:

Ge 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Ecc. 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the *spirit [ruwach=breath] shall return unto God who gave it.

*spirit ruwach and means mind, breath or wind.

So in order for a 'soul' to go to heaven [or hell, which btw means the grave] a living soul [a flesh and blood/ living being] would have to go to heaven.

Does the Scriptures teach flesh and blood men can enter the kingdom of God? I think we all know the answer to that is no.

So there you have it. Man is a living soul. How does he become a 'living' soul? The same way Adam did. God breaths into every baby [upon birth] the breath [spirit] of life and that baby becomes [just as Adam did] a living being/ a living soul.

So what happens upon death of this living soul? It goes into the grave to await the first resurrection mentioned in 1 Thess. 4:16 (dead in Christ shall rise [means to resurrect to live again]), and the spirit [breath of life] returns to God.

Various cults promote the heresy of soul sleep. But the word of God shows clearly that believers go to heaven when they die.

The word 'soul' is used in different ways in the Bible and can be easily researched. As I showed in post #3, the Scriptures SHOW the souls of the tribulational martyrs in heaven, apparently in an interim body.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by doesntspringtomind

your soul goes to Hades at the moment of death. it has two sides, namely the paradise side (for the saved) and the torment side (for the 'rebels') of Hades. only at the moment of ressurection will you have a new glorified/eternal body.. (that also implies that your soul is released from hades then, and for lack of a better word it is "combined" with the new body. what if you do not have part in the first ressurection? well, your soul will stay in Hades for another 1000 years, and only after the milennium will you be ressurected and forced to stand before the Great White Throne where you will receive your eternal judgment. (after the great white throne judgment hades will be empty and destroyed so to speak)
therefore, we can say the deceased are now waiting. for what? some of them for a new glorious ressurection, and some for their coming horrific judgment.
whether you're conscious or not between death and ressurection, this I can't tell for sure for I've never died.. but I believe this sort of explanation above implies that you're indeed conscious because your soul lives on in the underworld and cannot die.

that's how I see revelation 20,21..

Very interesting, and similar in a number of ways to the LDS belief.

[DT113876]

There's plenty of stuff in the new testament from Jesus, Paul, and other writers to suggest the Christian belief has always been that the dead are conscious after they die. "Sleep" is what the body does. Now, the idea of rest for the soul seems thoroughly in keeping with the NT and Christian tradition, but that doesn't imply unconsciousness.

[ShanaBrown]

The first thing we need to do is determine what a 'soul' is? Why? Because contrary to popular teachings/belief ppl don't 'have' a soul; [something that's seperate from the body] we are a soul.

The next thing we need to do is define the word soul:

soul: nephesh and means a living being [for man] and a living creature [for animals]

Ge 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath [ruwach=spirit] of life; and man became a living [chay=alive] soul.[nephesh]

Note it doesn't say God breathed into Adam a 'soul' but that Adam became a living soul.

Ge 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living [chay] creature [nephesh] that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was goodan became a living soul.

Now another common teaching is that man has an immortal soul. Is this what the Scriptures teach? Contrary to popular belief the answer is, no. The Scriptures teach that only God/Christ have immortality:

1 Tim. 6:
14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

And as to the teaching that a 'soul' goes to heaven or hell that too is contray to what Scriptures teach. Here's what it does teach:

Ge 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Ecc. 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the *spirit [ruwach=breath] shall return unto God who gave it.

*spirit ruwach and means mind, breath or wind.

So in order for a 'soul' to go to heaven [or hell, which btw means the grave] a living soul [a flesh and blood/ living being] would have to go to heaven.

Does the Scriptures teach flesh and blood men can enter the kingdom of God? I think we all know the answer to that is no.

So there you have it. Man is a living soul. How does he become a 'living' soul? The same way Adam did. God breaths into every baby [upon birth] the breath [spirit] of life and that baby becomes [just as Adam did] a living being/ a living soul.

So what happens upon death of this living soul? It goes into the grave to await the first resurrection mentioned in 1 Thess. 4:16 (dead in Christ shall rise [means to resurrect to live again]), and the spirit [breath of life returns to God.

Agree. When Jesus spoke of Lazarus "sleeping" He clarified this by telling the disciples that Lazarus was dead. (John 11:14) Lazarus was right there in the tomb, dead, until the Lord raised him. It is described as "sleep" because it is a temporary state. When we are resurrected, we will put on immortality (1 Cor. 15) Thanks for sharing and God bless.

[antredd]

Originally Posted by RobinRooper101

When we talk about soul sleep we don't believe that an immortal soul of a person sleeps in the grave, we believe that a person remains unconscious in the grave until the resurrection. For all those who oppose soul sleep and believe in the immortal soul, can you provide anything from the Bible that says people have an immortal soul? Can you show me where the soul of a person goes to heaven or hell at death?

Thanks

This topic has been beaten into the water several times. The support for the doctrine of soul sleep has generally been found in these following verses:

Matt. 9:24
He said to them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they derided him.

Matt. 27:52
And the graves were opened, and many bodies of the saints who slept, arose,

John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith to them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

Acts 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Acts 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid to his fathers, and saw corruption:

1 Corinthians 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain to this present, but some are fallen asleep.

1 Corinthians 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1 Thessalonians 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.



Moreover, there are scriptures that apparently teach that the dead do not have a conscious existence:

Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Psalms 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do itwith thy might; for there isno work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Isaiah 38:19 The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I dothis day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth.

After reading these verses, they do appear to overwhelmingly lean toward the doctrine of soul sleep. But there seems to be a clear explanation for why the bible talks about death as sleeping. One way of looking at death is simply from a metaphorical point of view. Scripture represents death metaphorically as "sleep" simply to indicate that death is only TEMPORARY for christians, just as sleep is temporary. This can be clearly seen when Jesus tells his disciples, for example, about the death of Lazarus. He says:These things said he: and after that he saith to them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. (John 11:11)

We should noticed that Jesues does not say, The soul of Lazarus is sleeping, " nor the fact, does any verse say that the soul of a person is sleeping or unconscious ( a statement that would be necessary to prove the doctrine of soul sleep). Instead, Jesus simply says that Lazarus has fallen asleep. Then John explains in the next verses: Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spoke of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.John 11:12-13

What about the passages that seem to overwhelmingly demonstrate that souls of believers go immediately into God's presence and enjoy fellowship with him there:

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say,and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Philippians 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, Verily I say to thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

These verses all indicate that there is conscious existence and fellowship with God immediately after death for the believer. Jesus did not say, "Today you will no longer have consciousness of anything that is going on," but, "today you will be with me in Paradise" ( Luke 23:43). Certainly the conception of paradise understood at that time was not one of unconscious existence but one of great blessing and joy in the presense of God.

Paul did not say, "My desire is to depart and be unconscious for a long period of time," but rather, "My desire is to depart and be with Christ (Phil. 1:23). Paul, writing under the inspiration of the Holy spirit, certainly knew that Christ was not an unconscious, sleeping Savior,but one who was actively living and reigning in heaven. To be with Christ was to enjoy the blessing of fellowship in his presence, and that is why to depart and be with Him was and still is far better. Also, that is why Paul can clearly say, "We would rather be away fromt he body and at home with the Lord."

How about the fact that Hebrews 12:1 says, "We are surrounded by so great a clould of witnesses," just after an entire chapter is spent on the discussion of the faith of Old Testament saints who had died (Heb. 11), and the fact that the Hebrew's writer encourages us to run the race of life with perseverance because we are surrounded by this great cloud of witnesses. Here the writer of Hebrews is both suggesting that those who have died and gone before have some awareness of what is going on in the earth.

How about Revelation 6:9-11 and 7:9-10? These Scriptures also clearly show that souls or spirits of those who have died and who have gone to heaven are praying and worshiping, for they cry out with a loud voice:

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and to the Lamb.

All of these verses deny the doctrine of soul sleep, for they make it clear that the souls of believers experience conscious fellowship with God in heaven immediately upon death. Since Scripture doesn't contradict itself and when Scriputure represents death as "sleep", it is simply a metaphorical expression used to indicate that the death of a christian is only temporaray, just as sleep is temporary.

[trettep]

Originally Posted by antredd

This topic has been beaten into the water several times. The support for the doctrine of soul sleep has generally been found in these following verses:

Matt. 9:24
He said to them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they derided him.

Matt. 27:52
And the graves were opened, and many bodies of the saints who slept, arose,

John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith to them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

Acts 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Acts 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid to his fathers, and saw corruption:

1 Corinthians 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain to this present, but some are fallen asleep.

1 Corinthians 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1 Thessalonians 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.



Moreover, there are scriptures that apparently teach that the dead do not have a conscious existence:

Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Psalms 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do itwith thy might; for there isno work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Isaiah 38:19 The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I dothis day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth.

After reading these verses, they do appear to overwhelmingly lean toward the doctrine of soul sleep. But there seems to be a clear explanation for why the bible talks about death as sleeping. One way of looking at death is simply from a metaphorical point of view. Scripture represents death metaphorically as "sleep" simply to indicate that death is only TEMPORARY for christians, just as sleep is temporary. This can be clearly seen when Jesus tells his disciples, for example, about the death of Lazarus. He says:These things said he: and after that he saith to them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. (John 11:11)

We should noticed that Jesues does not say, The soul of Lazarus is sleeping, " nor the fact, does any verse say that the soul of a person is sleeping or unconscious ( a statement that would be necessary to prove the doctrine of soul sleep). Instead, Jesus simply says that Lazarus has fallen asleep. Then John explains in the next verses: Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spoke of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.John 11:12-13

What about the passages that seem to overwhelmingly demonstrate that souls of believers go immediately into God's presence and enjoy fellowship with him there:

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say,and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Philippians 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, Verily I say to thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

These verses all indicate that there is conscious existence and fellowship with God immediately after death for the believer. Jesus did not say, "Today you will no longer have consciousness of anything that is going on," but, "today you will be with me in Paradise" ( Luke 23:43). Certainly the conception of paradise understood at that time was not one of unconscious existence but one of great blessing and joy in the presense of God.

Paul did not say, "My desire is to depart and be unconscious for a long period of time," but rather, "My desire is to depart and be with Christ (Phil. 1:23). Paul, writing under the inspiration of the Holy spirit, certainly knew that Christ was not an unconscious, sleeping Savior,but one who was actively living and reigning in heaven. To be with Christ was to enjoy the blessing of fellowship in his presence, and that is why to depart and be with Him was and still is far better. Also, that is why Paul can clearly say, "We would rather be away fromt he body and at home with the Lord."

How about the fact that Hebrews 12:1 says, "We are surrounded by so great a clould of witnesses," just after an entire chapter is spent on the discussion of the faith of Old Testament saints who had died (Heb. 11), and the fact that the Hebrew's writer encourages us to run the race of life with perseverance because we are surrounded by this great cloud of witnesses. Here the writer of Hebrews is both suggesting that those who have died and gone before have some awareness of what is going on in the earth.

How about Revelation 6:9-11 and 7:9-10? These Scriptures also clearly show that souls or spirits of those who have died and who have gone to heaven are praying and worshiping, for they cry out with a loud voice:

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and to the Lamb.

All of these verses deny the doctrine of soul sleep, for they make it clear that the souls of believers experience conscious fellowship with God in heaven immediately upon death. Since Scripture doesn't contradict itself and when Scriputure represents death as "sleep", it is simply a metaphorical expression used to indicate that the death of a christian is only temporaray, just as sleep is temporary.

You would have to explain this verse:

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

If the rest of the dead were not to be alive again till after the thousand years then what is the state of their soul during that timeframe?

[antredd]

Originally Posted by trettep

You would have to explain this verse:

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

If the rest of the dead were not to be alive again till after the thousand years then what is the state of their soul during that timeframe?

In order for me to try to answer your question, I need to quote a verse from this same chapter. Revelation 20:13 states, And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Carefully notice how the Bible differentiates between “death” and “hell” here. If soul sleep were true, then there would be no dead coming from hell, only from death. The fact that God differentiates between the sea, death and hell, I think is further solid evidence that soul sleep is not a Biblical teaching. We read clearly that some of the dead came from hell. So now it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure our the state of the dead after reading Rev. 20:5. They were in hell or hades awaiting their resurrection.

Matthew 22:32 states, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. God is not the God of the DEAD; but of the LIVING.

[trettep]

Originally Posted by antredd

In order for me to try to answer your question, I need to quote a verse from this same chapter. Revelation 20:13 states, And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Carefully notice how the Bible differentiates between “death” and “hell” here. If soul sleep were true, then there would be no dead coming from hell, only from death. The fact that God differentiates between the sea, death and hell, I think is further solid evidence that soul sleep is not a Biblical teaching. We read clearly that some of the dead came from hell. So now it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure our the state of the dead after reading Rev. 20:5. They were in hell or hades awaiting their resurrection.

Matthew 22:32 states, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. God is not the God of the DEAD; but of the LIVING.

No Hell, is simply hades in that verse which is unseen - usually identified as the grave.

There is nobody alive in "hell". They are asleep. Even Jesus went to hades (Hell):

Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

That verse is speaking about Jesus.