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Old 12-18-2011, 08:20 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GREATDIVIDE46 View Post
I would definitely "sweat" the baptism thing. A person who knows to be baptized but refuses to be, IMO, has a problem with their relationship with God. There is no doubt that Jesus commanded baptism (Matthew 28:19), that we put on Christ when we are baptized (Galatians 3:27), that when we are baptized we are baptized into His death (Romans 6:3-4), that we receive the Holy Spirit when we are baptized (Acts 2:38; 1 Corinthians 12:13), and that we are added to the church when we are baptized (Acts 2:41). Nowhere in Scripture does it say any of these things occur when we have faith alone.
Why do you fail to distinquish between the ritual of water baptism and the real baptism of the Holy Spirit? Gal 3:27, Rom 6:3-4, and 1 Cor 12:13 are talking about the baptism of the Holy Spirit, NOT the ritual of water baptism.

As for Acts 2:38, I have made clear in my thread Who was Acts 2:38 addressed to? that those who believe that Acts 2:38 was addressed to anyone other than the Jews at the beginning of the church-age must explain WHY the requirement of being water baptized before they could receive the Holy Spirit was NOT imposed on the Gentiles in Acts 10:43-47.

It must also be explained why the Samaritans in Acts 8:12-17 did NOT receive the Holy Spirit after having believed on Christ and after having been baptized in water, but had to wait to receive the Holy Spirit until a later date when Peter and John arrived to lay hands on them.

I have already explained these things in my thread and in my other thread which is linked to in that thread.

Acts 2:38 - Jews - required to be water baptized and then they received the Holy Spirit.

Acts 10:43-47 - Gentiles - received the Holy Spirit and then got water baptized. The opposite of what occurred in Acts 2:38.

Acts 8:12-17 - Samaritans - believed in Christ, got water baptized - did not receive the Holy Spirit until a later day when Peter arrived to lay hands on them.


Yes, Jesus commanded water baptism. It had a purpose, but NOT to be eternally saved.

With the exception of Acts 2:38 and Acts 8:12-17, the norm for the church-age is to receive the Holy Spirit the moment a person simply believes in Christ alone for eternal salvation, just as the Gentiles in Acts 10:43-47 did.

I highly recommend anyone reading this to listen to the following study on baptism.

Baptism (Audios) : Country Bible Church - Brenham, TX
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Old 12-18-2011, 08:37 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
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Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (which btw is the "gift" is faith)


Acts 22:16
And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’
Galatians 3:27
for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
God used water baptism for a purpose (Galations 3:27).
Romans 6:3
Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

1 Peter 3:21
and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,


\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\

There was another group of people who thought lightly of the purpose of water baptism:
Luke 7:30
But the Pharisees and experts in the law rejected God’s purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John.
Whom are you going to believe ....
  1. Pharisees and experts in the law
    • ------ or
  2. even the tax collectors, when they heard Jesus’ words, acknowledged that God’s way was right, because they had been baptized by John. Luke 7:29
What are Jesus' (God's) words...Listen to whom acknowledges that God’s way was right
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Old 12-18-2011, 10:28 AM
 
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@twin.spin. So.....you've already been refuted , but you come back with the same scriptures anyway?


Brother..... This is the kind of scripture twisting that keeps the secular man away from God and creates more problems for the church. Not a single one of the scriptures you mentioned say what you want it to say......but you only see what you wanna see
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Old 12-18-2011, 10:29 AM
 
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Its plain dishonest to take these scriptures out of their context
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Old 12-18-2011, 10:49 AM
 
37,357 posts, read 25,159,859 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is a one time event in which God the Holy Spirit takes the believer and places him at the moment of faith alone in Christ alone into an unbreakable, eternal, and legal union with Christ. It is the believers Positional sanctification which is the believers legal position in Christ. It has nothing to do with experiential sanctification which IS an ongoing process.

1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.'

'Were baptized' - ebapisthemen - Aorist Indicative Passive. In the indicative mood the aorist tense denotes action that occurred in the past time, often translated like the English simple past tense.

At the moment of faith alone in Christ alone the believer is permanently placed into the body of Christ. The basis for the formation of the church in which there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile. It is because of the baptism of the Holy Spirit that the church-age believer is a new creation. 2 Cor 5:17 'Therefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old things passed away; behold new things have come.

By means of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, the believer is positionally sanctified and therefore made POSITIONALLY perfect - complete. Hebrews 10:14 'For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.'

'He has perfected' -teteleioken - Perfect Indicative Active.

The basic thought of the perfect tense is that the progress of an action has been completed and the results of the action are continuing on, in full effect. In other words, the progress of the action has reached its culmination and the finished results are now in existence. Unlike the English perfect, which indicates a completed past action, the Greek perfect tense indicates the continuation and present state of a completed past action.
Greek Verbs (Shorter Definitions)

At the moment of faith in Christ, the believer, having been placed into union with Christ through the baptism of the Holy Spirit and therefore Positionally sanctified is Positionally perfected forever. Positionally, the believer is as perfect as He will ever be.

The believers Positional sanctification has no relationship with the believers Experiential sanctification which involves the believers daily rapport with Christ. Experiential sanctification is progressive and takes place over the the believers lifetime. It depends on growing in grace and in the knowledge of Jesus Christ (2 Peter 3:18).

Experiential sanctification is addressed in passages such as 1 Peter 1:14-16 'As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance, 15] but like the Holy One who called you, be holy Yourselves also in all your behavior; 16] because it is written, ''You shall be holy, for I am holy.'' And 2 Cor 7:1 'Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.'

Positional Sanctification is accomplished by the baptism of the Holy Spirit which takes place at the moment of faith in Christ and is the believers permanent legal position in Christ which is unbreakable. It cannot be lost.

Experiential Sanctification is the result of the believers spiritual growth after salvation and is ongoing. A failure to learn and apply the word of God to the circumstances of the believers life means he will not be experientially sanctified even though he is positionally sanctified forever.

These are two different stages of the believers sanctification.
Your mentors have complicated this way beyond what is necessary, Mike. What you call "Positional Sanctification" is nothing more than the actual inner commitment to Christ's "love of God and each other." Once that becomes your preferred lifestyle approach you will try daily to do so (what you call Experiential Sanctification). It is that inner commitment to the guidance and promptings of the Holy spirit within that is Holy Spirit baptism. Your mentors have things so discombobulated with magic, supernatural nonsense, hocus pocus and superstition that the truth is right under your fingertips but unseen.
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Old 12-18-2011, 10:53 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,822 posts, read 9,795,256 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshinchrist View Post
@twin.spin. So.....you've already been refuted , but you come back with the same scriptures anyway?


Brother..... This is the kind of scripture twisting that keeps the secular man away from God and creates more problems for the church. Not a single one of the scriptures you mentioned say what you want it to say......but you only see what you wanna see
I come back with them because they are the truth.

" It [refering to water baptism] saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, " 1 Peter 3:21

Earlier in God's word we read the comparison of the saving properties when Peter refered to Noah... "In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water"] 1 Peter 3:20

I have not been refuted by anyone except for those who reject that that God’s way was right .....
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Old 12-18-2011, 11:57 AM
 
63 posts, read 99,398 times
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Wrong. I Peter 3:21 actually refutes your whole argument all by itself. Stop seeing what you wanna see and just take scripture for what it is.
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Old 12-18-2011, 12:31 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,822 posts, read 9,795,256 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshinchrist View Post
Wrong. I Peter 3:21 actually refutes your whole argument all by itself. Stop seeing what you wanna see and just take scripture for what it is.
Too bad that you take the side of Pharisees and experts in the law that rejected God’s purpose for themselves.

These are Jesus' (God's) words... Acts 10:47
“Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”
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Old 12-18-2011, 02:06 PM
 
Location: US
26,145 posts, read 13,865,223 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
You are absolutely correct if you are only talking about water baptism. If however we are talking about being baptized in the Spirit (which occures after you have thouroughly, totally repented of your sins and no longer commit willfull sin), that is a whole other baptism altogether...and yes...you MUST! be baptized by the indwelling Holy Spirit, and die in this state, not having returned back to your sin, to receive eternal life .

God Bless you,
Verna.
One is baptized by the Holy Spirit into the body of Jeshua...What?...Have you given up ranting about the Sabbath, so now you are going to rant on about this?...
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Old 12-18-2011, 02:08 PM
 
Location: US
26,145 posts, read 13,865,223 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave5150 View Post
I am not baptised. My husband was "baptised" by the neighbor and my son is not baptised and we dont go to church. I believe that whether I pray in a church or a closet, God still hears my plea. But I wholeheartedly refuse to believe that someone in a robe has to dunk me underwater to absolve my sins so I can be clean to go to heaven. Im pretty sure that someone died a very slow painful awful death through persecution and abuse to absolve my sins. So why this idea that someone has to do baptise me? Why at my birth being born a sinner and accepting the Lord in my heart do I need additional saving? I dont believe that I have to adhere to the church taught doctrine because God knows that whatever my belief and however I practice, that I have a pure heart and I am pure in my belief. Am I correct?
I thought you were a guy Dave?...
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