Not being baptised, still going to Heaven (scripture, Holy Spirit, mystic)

[Phazelwood]

Originally Posted by Dave5150

I am not baptised. My husband was "baptised" by the neighbor and my son is not baptised and we dont go to church. I believe that whether I pray in a church or a closet, God still hears my plea. But I wholeheartedly refuse to believe that someone in a robe has to dunk me underwater to absolve my sins so I can be clean to go to heaven. Im pretty sure that someone died a very slow painful awful death through persecution and abuse to absolve my sins. So why this idea that someone has to do baptise me? Why at my birth being born a sinner and accepting the Lord in my heart do I need additional saving? I dont believe that I have to adhere to the church taught doctrine because God knows that whatever my belief and however I practice, that I have a pure heart and I am pure in my belief. Am I correct?

People extract baptism out of the process as if you must separatly go to a church or a river or stream some place and get dunked.

The issue is that baptism must take place, but as you walk your journey seeking the Lord, repent and seek his love, it is something that WILL happen. It will happen because it must happen, and you know when it does happen and words will not do it justice. It is when knowledge of your walk surpasses how you feel about your walk or where you are at at any moment.

[Mike555]

Originally Posted by GREATDIVIDE46

I fail to distinguish because there's nothing to distinguish. The Bible clearly says that there is only one baptism (Ephesians 4:5) and since Jesus says that we must be born of water and Spirit (John 3:5), I believe that we receive the indwelling, regenerating presence of the Holy Spirit when we are baptized (see Acts 2:38)

John 3:5 is not talking about water baptism. Jesus was speaking to a Pharisee. To a Pharisee water had three different spiritual connotations. Jesus' use of the word water so that Nicodemus might more easily understand what He was saying. And of course, Nicodemus did not immediately understand.

1. Water could mean salvation as in Isa 55:1. ''Ho! Everyone who thirsts, come to the waters; And you who have no money come, buy and eat. Come, buy wine and milk without money and without cost.'

2. Water could mean the water of the word as in Eph 5:26 'that He might sancitify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water by the word.' Here water referred to the gospel.

3. Water could mean the water of the Holy Spirit as in John 7:38. ''He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.' '' 39] But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.


Why do you refer me to Acts 2:38 when I just did a thread contrasting Acts 2:38 with Acts 8:12-17 and Acts 10: 44-48 ---> Who was Acts 2:38 addressed to?


You say that you believe that the believer receives the indwelling regenerating presence of the Holy Spirit when he is baptized in water. THEN EXPLAIN WHY THE SAMARITANS DID NOT RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT EVEN THOUGH THEY HAD BEEN BAPTIZED IN WATER AFTER HAVING BELIEVED IN CHRIST AND WERE THEREFORE ALREADY REGENERATED - BORN AGAIN, UNTIL PETER ARRIVED IN SAMARIA TO LAY HANDS ON THEM AT WHICH POINT THEY DID RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT.

Here is the passage again: Acts 8:12 'But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike. 13] And even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip; and as he observed signs and great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed. 14] 'Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, 15] who came down and prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16] For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17] Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit.

For He (the Holy Spirit) had not yet fallen upon any of them; THEY HAD SIMPLY BEEN BAPTIZED. That should tell you something.

You may have made it clear in your mind, but I happen to believe that all of Scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, correction, reproof, and training in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16).

All Scripture is indeed God-breathed.

Therefore, I believe Acts 2:38 is addressed as much to people today as it was addressed to those who originally heard it.

And the requirement of being water baptized before they could receive the indwelling, regenerating presence of the Holy Spirit was imposed on the Gentiles (Acts 10:48)

What they received after their baptism was not the indwelling, regenerating presence of the Holy Spirit. It was the gift of tongues, just like the gentiles in Acts 10 received the gift of tongues prior to their baptism in water in Acts 10.

You say that the Gentiles had to be baptized before they received the Holy Spirit. So let's see what the passage actually says.

Acts 10:43 ''Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.'' 44] While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45] And all the circumcised believers who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles also. 46] For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47] ''Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?''

Verse 44 says that the Holy Spirit fell upon them. Verse 47 says that they have received the Holy Spirit. Peter said surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit. Compare that with Acts 2:38 which says 'you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. And compare it with Acts 8:17 which says 'and they were receiving the Holy Spirit.

The Gentiles received the Holy Spirit before were baptized in water and the proof that they had received the Holy Spirit was that they began speaking in tonques and exalting God (Acts 10:46).

Yes, you explained them, but I don't find your explanations convincing.

That's because you will not listen.

You are also confusing the baptism of the Holy Spirit with regeneration. The regenerating ministry of the Holy Spirit by which the Holy Spirit creates a human spirit in those who have believed in Christ, and to which God imputes His perfect righteousness and eternal life, is common to all dispensations. The baptism of the Holy Spirit, and the universal indwelling of the Holy Spirit in those who have believed in Christ are two ministries of the Holy Spirit which are unique to the dispensation of the church.

[GREATDIVIDE46]

Originally posted by Mike555

You say that you believe that the believer receives the indwelling regenerating presence of the Holy Spirit when he is baptized in water. THEN EXPLAIN WHY THE SAMARITANS DID NOT RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT EVEN THOUGH THEY HAD BEEN BAPTIZED IN WATER AFTER HAVING BELIEVED IN CHRIST AND WERE THEREFORE ALREADY REGENERATED - BORN AGAIN, UNTIL PETER ARRIVED IN SAMARIA TO LAY HANDS ON THEM AT WHICH POINT THEY DID RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT.

They did receive the regenerating presence Holy Spirit when they were baptized in water after having believed. What they received when Peter laid hands on them was the gift of tongues from the Holy Spirit.

[GREATDIVIDE46]

Originally posted by Mike555

You are also confusing the baptism of the Holy Spirit with regeneration. The regenerating ministry of the Holy Spirit by which the Holy Spirit creates a human spirit in those who have believed in Christ, and to which God imputes His perfect righteousness and eternal life, is common to all dispensations. The baptism of the Holy Spirit, and the universal indwelling of the Holy Spirit in those who have believed in Christ are two ministries of the Holy Spirit which are unique to the dispensation of the church.

No, I'm not confusing the baptism of the Holy Spirit with regeneration (see Titus 3:5). You are confusing the baptism of the Holy Spirit with a single gift of the Holy Spirit, i.e., speaking in tongues. Speaking in tongues is not the baptism of the Holy Spirit -- it is merely one gift that the Holy Spirit gives to believers and that not even to all believers.

[Mike555]

Originally Posted by GREATDIVIDE46

They did receive the regenerating presence Holy Spirit when they were baptized in water after having believed. What they received when Peter laid hands on them was the gift of tongues from the Holy Spirit.

No they did not. The Samaritans like everyone else were regenerated at the moment they believed on Christ. They then got water baptized, but did not receive the Indwelling of the Spirit and the baptism of the Spirit (two different ministries unique to the dispensation of the Church) until Peter and John arrived to lay hands on them. Read the passage carefully.

Acts 8:14 'Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John, 15] who came down and prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16] For He had not yet fallen on any of them; they had simply been bapized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Again, regeneration, indwelling, and the baptism of the Holy Spirit are three entirely different ministries of the Holy Spirit.

Regeneration is common to every dispensation of human history.

But the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the baptism of the Holy Spirit are two ministries which occur only in the church-age. This is what distinquishes the church-age believer from believers of every other dispensation.

[Mike555]

Originally Posted by GREATDIVIDE46

No, I'm not confusing the baptism of the Holy Spirit with regeneration (see Titus 3:5). You are confusing the baptism of the Holy Spirit with a single gift of the Holy Spirit, i.e., speaking in tongues. Speaking in tongues is not the baptism of the Holy Spirit -- it is merely one gift that the Holy Spirit gives to believers and that not even to all believers.

No, Speaking in tongues is not the baptism of the Holy Spirit and I never said that it was. When the Gentiles in Acts 10: 44-47 believed the gospel message they began speaking in tongues BECAUSE of the fact that they had received the Spirit which happened before they ever got baptized in water.

Yes you are confused. There are in fact six salvation ministries of the Holy Spirit.

1. Regeneration in which the Holy Spirit creates a human spirit to which God the Father imputes His perfect righeousness and His eternal life. (Titus 3:5).

2. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit. (Romans 8:11).

3. The baptism of the Holy Spirit. (1 Cor 12:13).

4. The sealing of the Holy Spirit. (Eph 1:13-14).

5. The filling of the Holy Spirit. (Eph 5:18).

6. The distribution of one or more spiritual gifts to the believer. (1 Cor 12:4-11).

Feel free to research these different ministries.

[Richard1965]

Originally Posted by kids in america_

Actually the “it” refers to “holy Spirit” baptism. Baptism [gk. immersion] by the “holy spirit” was made possible by the resurrection of Jesus. When Jesus ascended after the resurrection, ‘god’ exalted him as Lord and made him the baptizer with “holy spirit’.

Echoes of John...

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

I think that this is the key verse to comprehending the baptism thing...

[kids in america_]

Originally Posted by Richard1965

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

I think that this is the key verse to comprehending the baptism thing...

Yeah it should be but there are Christians out there that say there’s another water (Christian) baptism after John’s water baptism.

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by Mike555

No, Speaking in tongues is not the baptism of the Holy Spirit and I never said that it was. When the Gentiles in Acts 10: 44-47 believed the gospel message they began speaking in tongues BECAUSE of the fact that they had received the Spirit which happened before they ever got baptized in water.

Yes you are confused. There are in fact six salvation ministries of the Holy Spirit.

1. Regeneration in which the Holy Spirit creates a human spirit to which God the Father imputes His perfect righeousness and His eternal life. (Titus 3:5).

2. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit. (Romans 8:11).

3. The baptism of the Holy Spirit. (1 Cor 12:13).

4. The sealing of the Holy Spirit. (Eph 1:13-14).

5. The filling of the Holy Spirit. (Eph 5:18).

6. The distribution of one or more spiritual gifts to the believer. (1 Cor 12:4-11).

Feel free to research these different ministries.

Really . . . six and we don't have to do anything except believe and have faith??? ::Sigh:: . . . magicadoola, midgicaboola, bibbity bobbity boo.

[TheoGeek]

Originally Posted by Dave5150

I am not baptised. My husband was "baptised" by the neighbor and my son is not baptised and we dont go to church. I believe that whether I pray in a church or a closet, God still hears my plea. But I wholeheartedly refuse to believe that someone in a robe has to dunk me underwater to absolve my sins so I can be clean to go to heaven. Im pretty sure that someone died a very slow painful awful death through persecution and abuse to absolve my sins. So why this idea that someone has to do baptise me? Why at my birth being born a sinner and accepting the Lord in my heart do I need additional saving? I dont believe that I have to adhere to the church taught doctrine because God knows that whatever my belief and however I practice, that I have a pure heart and I am pure in my belief. Am I correct?

The bigger question is why you've forsaken the assembling of the saints? Baptism doesn't save you any more than going to church does...but I do question your faith if you can't be bothered to attend church.