Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
If everyone is born into conemnation then how is this possible?...What of those that were already fitted for destruction?...
Spiritual death refers to separation from God in time - in this life. That refers to a lack of relationship with God. The second death refers to eternal separation from God in the lake of fire. Everyone is born spiritually dead - temporally separated from God. But when a person such as a baby or someone who never sufficiently developed mentally so that he could understand even the concept of God, much less be able to understand the need for salvation dies, God will not extend that person's spiritual death into the second death. Instead, because that person is unable to make a volitional decision to place his faith in Christ he is automatically saved because of the work of Christ on the cross.
When Christ died for the sins of the world He removed the barrier of sin which separates man from God. But man still has the problem of having relative righteousness and of lacking eternal life. In order to have an eternal relationship with God a person must have the same perfect absolute righteousness and eternal life that God has. God requires that man make a volitional decision to trust in Christ for salvation. It is when a person places his faith in Christ that God imputes His very own absolute perfect righteousness and eternal life to that person making it possible for him to spend eternity with God.
But if a person dies never having had the ability to make the required volitional decision for the reasons already mentioned, God who cannot be unfair and who is perfectly just, will impute His absolute righteousness and eternal life to that person at the point of physical death.
There is no scripture which directly speaks to that last sentence, but it is a matter of understanding that it is impossible for God to anything less then absolutely fair.
What about those who are fitted or prepared for destruction? That is simply a reference to the unsaved. Everyone is born already condemned. The issue is that a volitional decision to respond to the gospel by placing your faith in Christ must be made.
The objects of God's wrath are the unsaved (Rom 1:18) who will suffer eternal judgment (John 3:36). God has patiently endured their antagonism toward Him (Rom 3:25; 9:22b), but judgment awaits them. All who oppose God and refuse to turn to Him are storing up God's wrath for themselves (Rom 2:5) in the day of judgment.
God does not choose to send some people to the lake of fire for He does not desire that any perish (2 Pet 3:9). It is those who refuse to accept God's free offer of eternal salvation, who refuse the means by which they can be delivered from the second death which is eternal separation from God in the lake of fire who are fitted for destruction.
It does not say according to His foreknowledge, It say Because of WHOM He foreknew...Hawyaw did NOT look down the corridor of time and see who would accept and who would reject the offer of Salvation...That would negate His Omniscience...It is as He has Ordained it to be...We are not seperate beings from Hawyaw that He must look and learn about us...We have no existance outside of Him and are origins are because of Him...We are sentient because of Him...We are self-aware because of Him...It does not say 'from eternity past' regarding the Chosen...
Rom 8:29 because whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be the First-born among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 But whom He predestinated, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
If Hawyaw Chose those that He new would Believe...That would be Meritorious Salvation...Not Grace Salvation...
We are indeed separate beings from God. God is above all of His creation. But He has made it possible for those who will believe on Christ to have an eternal relationship with Him.
God's omnscience refers to His knowlege of all things pertaining both to what is actual, and to what might have been. God's foreknowledge refers only to the actual. God has always known from eternity past who would believe on Christ for salvation and who would not. Knowing who would believe in Christ, God predestined them to be transformed into the image of His Son.
Predestination does not refer to anyone being predestined to be saved or predestined to go to hell. Predestination refers to what those who of their own volition believe in Christ are predestined to.
By God's sovereign decision, human volition co-exists with divine Sovereignty. God gave man volition and He allows man's volitional decisions to play out. Positive voltion toward Christ results in eternal salvation. Negative volition toward Christ results in eternal condemnation.
Faith is always non-meritorius. The merit is always in the object of faith which is Jesus Christ (Eph 2:8-9).
If that is the scientific truth, then it maes logical sense...Still,
Isa 7:14 So, The Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold! The virgin will conceive and will bring forth a son; and she shall call His name Immanuel.
Isa 7:15 He shall eat curds and honey until He knows to refuse the evil and choose the good.
Isa 7:16 For before the boy shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you hate will be forsaken before both her kings.
Why would someone without the sin nature require learning to refure evil and choose good?...If one did not have the sin nature then that one would automatically choose good...Wouldn't you say?...
Of the three main views regarding Isa 7:14-16 one view sees this as primarily referring to Ahaz and that a virgin would give birth (not a virgin birth as in the case of Jesus) to a son around the time that the Aram-Israel alliance was broken. But that centuries later, the Holy Spirit would lead Matthew to quote Isaiah as a statement that is also true of a virgin birth (a birth to a woman who is still a virgin). Isaiah 7:14is a prophecy concerning the Messiah, but it first referred to a son born to a virgin who gave birth to a boy in the normal way rather than in the supernatural way in which Christ came into the world.
God is God and man is man. God is the creator and man is a creation of God. Though faith in Christ man can enter into an eternal relationship with God.
Isa 11:4
But with righteousness He will judge the poor,
And decide with fairness for the afflicted of the earth;
And He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth,
And with the breath of His lips He will slay the wicked.
A passage concerning Jesus Christ during His Millennial reign.
mishor - Fairness, equity, uprightness, evenness, a level place.
God is God and man is man. God is the creator and man is a creation of God.
Though faith in Christ man can enter into an eternal relationship with God.
I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor messengers, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things about to be, nor height, nor depth,
nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God. Which has been [is] readily seen through the Faithfulness of Christ Jesus.
Sure it is speaking of Jesus. But that doesn't say He was born with sin. If He were born with sin then He would not be able to be our redeemer for them He would be under the same curse of Adam's sin. It says in the scriptures that Jesus knew no sin - obviously He couldn't be born with sin either.
How many folks do you see in the old testament that walked righteous before Hawyaw?...What of Cornelius?...If Jeshua were born without sin, then He would not have to learn to reject evil and choose good, for the sin of rebellion would not be in Him...However, This is what the scriptures states regarding His learning...He was born with all our infirmnities, but, rose above them to be an example to us who are to follow...Stating that He was born without sin, Hawyaw has said in the Old Testament that He will wash one to be as white as snow, even tho one is crimson with sin...And this was to average men...Jews knew how to please Hawyaw, and that was to follow His commands and live a righteous life...Jeshua also knew this and He accomplished it in His life, this is how He was able to bare our sins...They called Him Meshiach, the Annointed One...However, David was also called the Meshiach and several others in the Old Testament, however, the difference between them and Jeshua was that they were not born of a Virgin, Jeshua was, which fulfilled that prophecy to indicate that this was the special One that Hawyaw intended to be THE Meshiach...All the Miracles that Jeshua performed were to validate His authenticity, not to wow people...The Virgin birth was a miracle to fulfill the Prophecy and validate Him...This was the other difference between the Meshiachs of the Old Testament and Jeshua Meshiach, they could not perform miracles...And they did not completely overcome sin...Jeshua did, therefore, He was able to become the perfect atoning Lamb of Hawyaw...
Spiritual death refers to separation from God in time - in this life. That refers to a lack of relationship with God. The second death refers to eternal separation from God in the lake of fire. Everyone is born spiritually dead - temporally separated from God. But when a person such as a baby or someone who never sufficiently developed mentally so that he could understand even the concept of God, much less be able to understand the need for salvation dies, God will not extend that person's spiritual death into the second death. Instead, because that person is unable to make a volitional decision to place his faith in Christ he is automatically saved because of the work of Christ on the cross.
I do not see any scripture that comes close to stating what you are stating...I think the problem you are having is in how you view humanity, that we are inherently good...I think you look at fairness from a humanistic viewpoint...If you read Leviticus, you will find a lot of unfairness according to todays societal standards, however, these are the Laws of Hawyaw...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
When Christ died for the sins of the world He removed the barrier of sin which separates man from God. But man still has the problem of having relative righteousness and of lacking eternal life. In order to have an eternal relationship with God a person must have the same perfect absolute righteousness and eternal life that God has. God requires that man make a volitional decision to trust in Christ for salvation. It is when a person places his faith in Christ that God imputes His very own absolute perfect righteousness and eternal life to that person making it possible for him to spend eternity with God.
Jeshua Meshiach died for the Elect of Hawyaw eternally, however He died for the world temporally...According to Paul, there is no volition regarding Faith...One must ask themselves from where does our volition stem?...A majority of Christians stop at their own wills instead of tracing back to the source of their wills, their decisions...There are only one of two sources available for the human will to be enslaved to...Ask yourself why Hawyaw chose only Israel to be His people and not reveal Himself to the rest of the world...How many have died outside the Old Covenant made with Israel?...was that fair?...Considering the way Israel kept screwing up?...What made Israel different in their sins from the sins of the unchosen Gentiles?...What of Jacob and Esau?...Was it fair to take Esau's birthright away from him before he was even born?...But this was Hawyaw's plan from the start...Was it fair for Jacob to gain the blessing thru deceptive means and Hawyaw to honor that deception?...Was it fair for Hawyaw to condemn all mankind for the sin of Adam?...I do not know where you live, but let's say you live on the west coast and i live on the east coast and we both have the same names, first and last, I commit murder, I am condmned to die in the electric chair, you share the same name that i do, so, they come all the way out to the west coast and condemn you to the electric chair, because you have the same name as me, even tho you were no where near me, they state that since you have the same name as me that you will do the same as me, so they are condemning you and anyone else with that same name...Is this fair?...Today we say it is not fair to children to put a poster up in the classroom with all there names on it and headings of tests along with Gold, Silver, Bronze, Green or Red stars indicating how each one did on particular tests as the schoolyear proceeds for all the children to see how each of their classmates has done, they say it is belittling and humiliating...However, when I was coming up, this is exactly what was done...It fostered competition and a desire to do better on the next test thru being ashamed that we did not study hard enough, and this shame was garnered thru our fellow classmates...It set goals for us to achieve...You have a Bronze star, you want a Gold one, what must you do to earn that Gold star?...Study harder...You do...However, you get a Silver star...It is not the Gold star you desire, but, there is progress...So, what do you do?...Study even harder...And finally, you reach your goal...A Gold star...Not only that, but you have learned a valuable lesson thru this system...What you must do to achieve and how much effort you have to put forth to achieve your goals...Today I hear many say that is unfair tactics...Everybody should get Gold stars for something...The point I am attempting to make here is that as time has marched on that we as a human race have become lax in our standards, our morals and our principles to the point where the our idea of fairness has become skewed with many attempting to pervert what the Scripture state...And they twist them to their own destruction for the real Truth sears their conscience...They say that, 'I would not deal as such, so I know my god would not deal like that'...Thus creating a god in their own image and labeling him the true christian god...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
But if a person dies never having had the ability to make the required volitional decision for the reasons already mentioned, God who cannot be unfair and who is perfectly just, will impute His absolute righteousness and eternal life to that person at the point of physical death.
There is no scripture which directly speaks to that last sentence, but it is a matter of understanding that it is impossible for God to anything less then absolutely fair.
You are proceeding outside the confines of scripture with undue specuations which is a dangerous place to be, brother...Think of the Potter metaphor in terms of one pot being made for honor as a human being and the other pot being made for dishonor as a human being...This is what Paul was pointing out, that Hawyaw does as He wills according to His good pleasure...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
What about those who are fitted or prepared for destruction? That is simply a reference to the unsaved. Everyone is born already condemned. The issue is that a volitional decision to respond to the gospel by placing your faith in Christ must be made.
The Greek sense of that verb is in the past completed tense, meaning that there were already fitted for that purpose, as 'kataridzo' would imply a fitting for a particular purpose, such as a boat being specifically fitted for it's intended purpose, sailing, fishing, transporting, etc....Which fits the verse speaking of those that were MADE for the day of destruction...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
The objects of God's wrath are the unsaved (Rom 1:18) who will suffer eternal judgment (John 3:36). God has patiently endured their antagonism toward Him (Rom 3:25; 9:22b), but judgment awaits them. All who oppose God and refuse to turn to Him are storing up God's wrath for themselves (Rom 2:5) in the day of judgment.
But, If it takes the regeneration of the Grace of Hawyaw to make them spiritually alive, then why does Hawyaw 'have mercy on whom He will, and harden whom He will'?...Why did He raise Pharoah up for THAT particular purpose and nothing else?...Why did Paul liken Him to a Potter?...You are missing the big picture here, Mike...However, I believe that you will eventually...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
God does not choose to send some people to the lake of fire for He does not desire that any perish (2 Pet 3:9). It is those who refuse to accept God's free offer of eternal salvation, who refuse the means by which they can be delivered from the second death which is eternal separation from God in the lake of fire who are fitted for destruction.
Let us look at this:
2Pe 3:9 The Lord of the promise is not slow, as some deem slowness, but is long-suffering toward us, not having purposed any to perish, but all to come to repentance.
Who is Peter speaking to?...What is the Lord's Promise?...When he says 'us', who is he speaking of, the whole world or the Elect of Hawyaw?...Since as believer is in the world but no longer of the world, Peter must be speaking of believers, for he includes himself when he says 'us'...for believers are no longer a part of the world...It is a shame that we cannot ask Peter, 'When you say 'us', do you mean us believers or us as in all mankind?'...What person do you know, after being fully instructed in the operation of an Anti-Personell device pulls the pin and and releases the fly handle and just stands there holding it knowing full well what it will do to him?...What person do you know that truely believes the Gospel, will reject the offer of Salvation and opt for eternity in the fires of Hell?...There has to be something that you are missing, Mie, regarding the Sovreignty of Hawyaw...
We are indeed separate beings from God. God is above all of His creation. But He has made it possible for those who will believe on Christ to have an eternal relationship with Him.
God's omnscience refers to His knowlege of all things pertaining both to what is actual, and to what might have been. God's foreknowledge refers only to the actual. God has always known from eternity past who would believe on Christ for salvation and who would not. Knowing who would believe in Christ, God predestined them to be transformed into the image of His Son.
Predestination does not refer to anyone being predestined to be saved or predestined to go to hell. Predestination refers to what those who of their own volition believe in Christ are predestined to.
By God's sovereign decision, human volition co-exists with divine Sovereignty. God gave man volition and He allows man's volitional decisions to play out. Positive voltion toward Christ results in eternal salvation. Negative volition toward Christ results in eternal condemnation.
Faith is always non-meritorius. The merit is always in the object of faith which is Jesus Christ (Eph 2:8-9).
Those He predestined, He also called...In other words He ordained them to be called...You lack this understanding and the humility to think that you might be wrong...If one makes a volitional decision for Jeshua, then that is merit...As one man stated long ago, "Let me be chosen for my merit and not for my value"...Let that sink in, Mike...And let me know what you think it means....
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
