Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Hi Scio,
Thanks for posting your very good questions.
The purpose of Jesus resurrection demonstrated that God accepted Jesus’ sacrifice on our behalf. It proves that God has the power to raise us from the dead. It guarantees that those who believe and obey Christ will not remain dead, but will be resurrected unto eternal life.
Christ has risen from the dead and “has become the first-fruits of those who have fallen asleep" assuring that we will follow Him in resurrection.
I agree that physical death IS a consequence of Adam's sin. We DO NOT die physically because we sin. Babies die and they do not sin. Ez. 18:20 tells us we do not inherit sin. Sin is something WE DO, not something we inherit. Spiritual death is a consequence of OUR sin, not Adam's. The soul that sins dies, not the soul who inherits sin dies. This is how I see it.
Katie
We inherit the nature of sin though...And not just those who believe in Jeshua will be resurrected, but all will be resurrected...Then comes the winnowing...
God is the Creator of all men. This is one of the clearest truths taught in the Bible.
Speaking of the tongue, James writes, "With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God;. James 3:9
Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions. Eccl. 7:29
For in the image of God made he man. Gen. 9:6 (long after the fall)
The Lord formeth the spirit of man within him. Zech. 12:1
The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life. Job 33:4
Thy hands have made me and fashioned me. Psalm 119:73
Thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee: for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Psalm 139:13, 14
Did not he that made me in the womb make him? and did not one fashion us in the womb? Job 31:15
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee. Jer. 1:5
Have we not all one father? Hath not one God created us? Mal. 2:10
Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth. Eccl. 12:1
Know ye that the Lord he is God; it is he that hath made us and not weourselves. Psalm 100:3
I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth...for it repenteth me that I have made them. Gen. 6:7
Man is the image and glory of God. I Cor. 11:7
He giveth to all life, and breath, and all things. Acts 17:25
We are the offspring of God. Acts 17:29
I am the root and the offspring of David. Rev. 22:16
Act 17:28 For in Him we live and move and exist, as also some of the poets among you have said, For we are also His offspring.
Act 17:29 Then being offspring of God, we ought not to suppose that the Godhead is like gold or silver or stone, engraved by art and the imagination of man.
I don't think Paul was stating this, but he was stating what their poets had said...He was using there own philosophy to convine them...Just as Jeshua used the Jewish Scriptures against the Pharasees when He referrenced the Scriptures that said 'Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Has it not been written in your Law, "I said, you are gods"? Psa. 82:6', 'Psa 82:6 I have said, You are gods, and all of you are sons of the Most High.'...
Last edited by Richard1965; 01-09-2012 at 03:12 AM..
Adam was both a physical, as well as a spiritual, being. To limit Gen 5:3 to only his physical attributes is not scriptural. This is why the natural man is born spiritually dead, and must be born of the Spirit.
The operative word in Eph 2:3 is nature. I underlined it for you in the post. That is the context and why those born of Adam (Gen. 5:3) bear Adam's image and likeness.
Infants do not "inherit" sin, at least scripture does not use that term, but rather they are "made sinners" through Adam's disobedience. The idea here is imputation, rather than inheritance, per se.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Just as the Righteousness of Jeshua is imputed to the Believer, also was the unrighteousness of Adam imputed to his descendants...We were made unrighteous because of Adam, but we are made Righteous because of Jeshua...I think this is easy to comprehend, but that is just my opinion...
Death comes to everybody... Christians included .... babies included... thus "the wages of sin is death"
But since Romans 6:23 is a comparison verse within itself and it speaks of "eternal life", then what kind of "death" is it being compared to (if we are going to keep apples to apples)........ it's not just the physical, but spiritual eternal death.
Every one of those verses you cite isn't about the topic of human's spiritual depravity and the fact that ....... no human (since Adam & Eve) starts without the death sentence. All humans are conceived unrighteous with the death sentence (physically and spiritually).
"In sin my mother conceive me"
+
"the wages of sin is death"
+
"no one is righteous ... not even one"
= Genesis 6:5
The LORD saw how great man’s wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time.
Now I suppose you're going to say that humans at any age don't even have any inclinations so as to maintain this "image of God" theory......... well , God's Word simply just does not agree. When God says "that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time."...., you simply do not have a case.
Nice to know that you still like me however ... I like ya too
What good would it do to go through verse by verse explaining how the context of each is not how you're applying it.......when you have no intentions listening. Those verses do not address the spiritual depravity of the natural condition of human. "Sin" is not just a condition based on actions \ decisions .... it is a barrier that is in and on every person who is concieved.
"The LORD saw how great man’s wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heartwas only evil all the time"
"No one is righteous... not even one."
"All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"
"We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way"
"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned"
Hi Twin,
You have taken Romans 3:10 out of context. Let me explain how.
10 As it is written: “ There is none righteous, no, not one;"
What is Paul referring to when he says, "As it is written?" Paul was quoting from Psalm 14, in which the context makes it plain that the reference is to unbelievers, to the ones who say "There is no God." They are the ones who are not righteous, no, not one.
If Romans 3:10 were speaking of the entirety of mankind, then christians themselves would be included in the none are righteous, and we know that cannot be true.
We know there are righteous people. If the atonement of Jesus cannot make men righteous, then what can it do?
Compare Romans 3:10 with the following:
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. (1 John 3:7
6And they (Zacharias and Elizabeth) were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. (Luke 1:6)
16 Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. (James 5:16)
17 for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it. (Matthew 13:17)
Romans 3:10 does not include christians, nor does it include babies. It is speaking of unbelievers, those who say there is no God.
I will address each of the other verses you cited. You accuse others of taking verses out of context, but then you go ahead and do exactly that as evidenced by your use of Romans 3:10.
Blessings,
Katie
Last edited by MissKate12; 01-09-2012 at 01:05 PM..
You have taken Romans 3:10 out of context. Let me explain how.
10 As it is written: “ There is none righteous, no, not one;"
What is Paul referring to when he says, "As it is written?" Paul was quoting from Psalm 14, in which the context makes it plain that the reference is to unbelievers, to the ones who say "There is no God." They are the ones who are not righteous, no, not one.
If Romans 3:10 were speaking of the entirety of mankind, then christians themselves would be included in the none are righteous, and we know that cannot be true.
We know there are righteous people. If the atonement of Jesus cannot make men righteous, then what can it do?
Compare Romans 3:10 with the following:
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. (1 John 3:7
6And they (Zacharias and Elizabeth) were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. (Luke 1:6)
16 Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. (James 5:16)
17 for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it. (Matthew 13:17)
Romans 3:10 does not include christians, nor does it include babies. It is speaking of unbelievers, those who say there is no God.
I will address each of the other verses you cited. You accuse others of taking verses out of context, but then you go ahead and do exactly that as evidenced by your use of Romans 3:10.
Blessings,
Katie
Don't forget verse 9 which shows that verse 10 is talking about believers as well.
Accusing someone else of taking a verse out of context is a rather moot point. Since there can be multiple contexts that a verse can apply to.
Verse 9 is suggesting that the very one speaking who is a believer is no better than any one else.
in matters of context, the context I see is a simple comparison that has been misconstrued as something it is not from english words.
It still is a simple matter of a plain fact, rather than some moral point many doctrines make it out to be. In comparison to God, no Christian is righteous despite the assurance of their salvation.
It actually is another reminder to not think of yourself as better than you actually are.
You can be a Christian and believe all you believe about salvation and such, in comparison to God, you are not finished and not even close to true righteousness. Doctrine and humans tend to paint all that in to this horrible light, when it actually is a good thing.
Can you imagine, being imperfect as a human and you get saved and you are told that you are righteous, as if our state of existance is all the better it gets?
I believe in Jesus, according to traditional thought, I am saved. But I am not going to fool myself that my spiritual state is all the better it gets because I can call myself righteous.
No, no one is truly righteous in comparison to God, and quite frankly that is a good thing, because that tells us how much greater things will be that we can look forward too.
What good would it do to go through verse by verse explaining how the context of each is not how you're applying it.......when you have no intentions listening. Those verses do not address the spiritual depravity of the natural condition of human. "Sin" is not just a condition based on actions \ decisions .... it is a barrier that is in and on every person who is concieved.
"The LORD saw how great man’s wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heartwas only evil all the time"
"No one is righteous... not even one."
"All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"
"We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way"
"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned"
Twin,
Just as you have taken "No one is righteous...not even one" out of context, you have also misrepresented "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." I believe the same applies to "We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own oway."
You are taking the word "ALL" to include babies. Let me show you why this view is not correct. Compare it to other verses, which also use the word "ALL."
Matthew 2:3 "3 When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him."
Does "all" include babies here? No, of course not. Only those who were capable of understanding Herod's mood were troubled.
Matthew 10:22 "22 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved."
Are we to include babies here? No, this only applies to those capable of hating. Babies are not capable of hating.
Matthew 12:23 "23 And all the multitudes were amazed and said, “Could this be the Son of David?”
This can only be applied to those who are capable of amazement, and having the ability to ask, "Could this be the Son of David?"
Matt. 21:26 26 But if we say, ‘From men,’ we fear the multitude, for all count John as a prophet.
All regard John as a prophet. Babies cannot form such opinions."
Mark 16:15 "15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature."
No one would say that the gospel must be preached to babies. We preach the gospel only to those who are capable of understanding it and believing it.
John 1:7 "7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe.
Can babies believe?
The only rational way to understand Romans 3:23 is "All who are capable of sin have sinned." Babies are not capable of sin.
Paul never intended to include babies in the "ALL" of Romans 3:23
Don't forget verse 9 which shows that verse 10 is talking about believers as well.
Accusing someone else of taking a verse out of context is a rather moot point. Since there can be multiple contexts that a verse can apply to.
Verse 9 is suggesting that the very one speaking who is a believer is no better than any one else.
in matters of context, the context I see is a simple comparison that has been misconstrued as something it is not from english words.
It still is a simple matter of a plain fact, rather than some moral point many doctrines make it out to be. In comparison to God, no Christian is righteous despite the assurance of their salvation.
It actually is another reminder to not think of yourself as better than you actually are.
You can be a Christian and believe all you believe about salvation and such, in comparison to God, you are not finished and not even close to true righteousness. Doctrine and humans tend to paint all that in to this horrible light, when it actually is a good thing.
Can you imagine, being imperfect as a human and you get saved and you are told that you are righteous, as if our state of existance is all the better it gets?
I believe in Jesus, according to traditional thought, I am saved. But I am not going to fool myself that my spiritual state is all the better it gets because I can call myself righteous.
No, no one is truly righteous in comparison to God, and quite frankly that is a good thing, because that tells us how much greater things will be that we can look forward too.
Phaze,
I quoted the verse exactly as Twin quoted it to me. I copied and pasted what he said. I have thoroughly proved that he took it out of context. Read Psalm 14. You will see for yourself that Paul is speaking of unbelievers.
Twin is using this verse to prove that babies are included in the none are righteous, the same way he misuses "All have sinned." He includes babies there as well. This is simply not true. Babies are completely innocent. They are not capable of sin, and Ez. 18:20 tells us they cannot inherit sin.
Christians ARE RIGHTEOUS. Read the verses I posted. If you don't believe they are, then why did Jesus die on the cross?
I did not in any way compare the righteousness of Jesus to my own or to anyone else's. I suggest you go back and reread the post closely. You have missed the point, and you are taking what I wrote to a place that was never intended by me.
I quoted the verse exactly as Twin quoted it to me. I copied and pasted what he said. I have thoroughly proved that he took it out of context. Read Psalm 14. You will see for yourself that Paul is speaking of unbelievers.
Twin is using this verse to prove that babies are included in the none are righteous, the same way he misuses "All have sinned." He includes babies there as well. This is simply not true. Babies are completely innocent. They are not capable of sin, and Ez. 18:20 tells us they cannot inherit sin.
Christians ARE RIGHTEOUS. Read the verses I posted. If you don't believe they are, then why did Jesus die on the cross?
I did not in any way compare the righteousness of Jesus to my own or to anyone else's. I suggest you go back and reread the post closely. You have missed the point, and you are taking what I wrote to a place that was never intended by me.
Blessings,
Katie
Katie I pointed out how I see the passage and why, I never said you said anything.
My point includes babies, because up to this point you nor anyone else has been able to demonstrate any scriptural exclusion of babies.
The problem is that Twins point of view is not incorrect because he includes babies, it is incorrect because he refuses to see how wonderful it is that NO ONE is excluded from the judgments of God, including Christians and babies. It is important to see why no one is righteous and how that is a GOOD THING even if we may not feel like it is.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
... I like ya too 
